Jacob / God / Groups
+7 11 Votes
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By Cimmerian
- Jacob / God / Groups
- Created: Apr 17, 2008
- Last updated: Aug 13, 2008
- After episode: 3.20: The Man Behind The Curtain
- Status: Current
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‘God loves you just as he loved Jacob’
In terms of what we know so far, just what could this statement mean? I’ve been wondering for a while and here’s my take on it. It all goes back to the beginning:
Season 4 has begun with the losties breaking into two groups, recently camp Jack and camp Locke. Alongside and previous to this there have been many more divides on the island such as: Ben / Widmore – Losties / Others - Dharma / Natives. So it seems the idea of two groups isn’t a new one and both groups always have opposite motives. An original divide I feel is the starting point of ‘Lost’ – but Jacob and God?
Essentially if there is a God, God would be outside of time. Time would not exist in any may which relates to our perception of it. God would be at the beginning and end of the universe at the same time, occupying and observing both ends and everything in between all at once. While it could be argued that this would limit a supposed omnipotent beings ability to control (as soon as the idea of the universe is conceived it has already played out) it is necessary if there is a God. Therefore a mind/time shift as experienced by Desmond is a move toward divine powers, it follows that this would be impossible for a human to comprehend without a constant as our perceptions of the universe and reality would no longer hold up. Reality is subjective perception after all.
The bible gives us the notion of wanting to gain the attributes of the divine with the Garden of Eden, the fruit represented knowledge, something God possessed but Adam and Eve did not. The eating of the fruit is seen as a distancing between Man and God, man turning away from Faith and looking towards…Science perhaps? As we are all aware Jack is the man of science, Locke the man of faith. Jack wants to leave the island, Locke wants to stay. The Black and White theme running throughout the show has run constantly throughout the history of the island.
Has Jacob repeated the Garden of Eden and distanced himself from God again? What I mean is, due to the properties of the Island, Jacob has chosen to continue furthering his understanding of God and the universe. You cannot change the future, this is true. Everything from the initial moment of time is just a mathematical equation playing out, one based on the limitations of our view on reality. God is simply fate, not a being of presence but rather of mathematical order. To mind / time shift however is not a challenge to this perfect mathematical harmony (but a constant is required as they have broken the normal understandable limits of their reality). The idea here is that Mind / Time shifts have been accounted for from the start of time. As long as a person follows what is essentially ‘Gods path’, the Mind / Time shifts provide little problems.
So what could Jacob have done to oppose or interfere with God? The idea of ‘Will’!
Free will is given to man and the universe can course correct if certain decisions are made. This is unlike the ‘Island Will’, which has been presented as a direct contradiction to the Free will of God. Michael tries to commit suicide and cannot, he no longer has a choice. If Jacob has the power of an Island Will then unlike God he has changed the mathematics of the universe. If we remove the Free Will then a person’s destiny is unchangeable, they are bound to follow a certain direction. God (The universe) and Jacob are now opposed.
That’s where I see this whole story starting from. So what is Jacob’s intention? Why does he exist and do what he does? It seems Jacob is trying to bring about an event, also appears to have something to do with the unknown properties of the island. That’s all I can say for now….
Key episodes
| # | Title | Aired | Central character | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3.20 | The Man Behind The Curtain | 5-9-2007 | Ben | 427 |
Unbelievably…that makes sense! Awesome!!!
I think the key word in the phrase ‘God loves you just as he loved Jacob’ is loved. Because this word is in the past tense, it infers one of two things. 1) Jacob is dead and God loved him while he was alive 2) Jacob is alive, was once beloved of God, but has done something to make God stop loving him.
If option one is correct, then the key questions we need to ask about Jacob is how he can still communicate to Ben and the Others after death, and what did we see sitting in that chair in the cabin? Was it a ghost or a optical illusion/parlor trick?
If option two is correct, then we must ask ourselves why the Others worship someone who has lost God’s love? Would this mean that Ben and the Others are indeed not the “good guys” they claim to be?
Thus we as theorist and Lost fans must decide three things: 1) Is Jacob dead or alive 2) Is he still beloved of God 3) What do the answers to the first questions, and the fact that the Other’s worship Jacob say about the Other’s intentions and motives and their claims that they are indeed the “good guys”.
Oh and +1 for hopefully opening a debate concerning the phrase ‘God loves you just as he loved Jacob’
Apologies for nit-picking but, if we are to discuss this phrase and the permutations of its meaning accurately (and I for one wholeheartedly hope for this to be totally debated), I want to clarify the precise wording. There is no “just” in the phrase. And there is also a capital H for “he”. As it appears in the Room 23 video, the slogan is:
‘God loves you as He loved Jacob.’
Now let me go off and think about what I think that means. . .!
Thanks for the correction Angelo, looking forward to seeing what ideas you have.
I have to give this a +1 for sounding good, even if I have no idea what it all means. I love reading things like this.
LostYouth loves you as He loved Fraggle Rock!
Cimmerian, Wow! +1 for a brilliant theory! I applaud your creativity and thought process. These are the kind of theories which stimulate the mind.
I would have to agree with your summations about the Universe and God. Science would indicate that a path is predestined, and one which cannot be altered, but one in which free will and choice have direct bearing on the experience.
I feel you are definitely on the right track with the idea of “Jacob” trying to effect change, which may alter the overall outcome of some event in the Universe. This would also lend itself well in accordance to what we know about the “Valenzetti Equation” and how the numbers were being applied to correct an event from occurring.
I agree with you about AC, I would like to hear AC’s thoughts when he gets over his proverbial snit.
Again, what a lovely theory!
It’s all dandy, but can you answer to a simple question? What is $3.2M?
Jacob is Israel, symbol of “Israel” - illegal Western colony. Island is Palestine that needs to get free from Jacob.
Though Jacob by himself was a Prophet of Allah, his name is abused by Banu Israel. Ben - Benjamin - one of the 12 tribes of Israel is a leader of illegal occupants.
good work
i kinda like this because i feel maybe jacob now has control of free will after someone leaves the island. It shows in Jack when his mind is forcing him to go back to the island
“God loves you” i think is referring to the current inhabitants on the island or at least from the point when Ben took over and started brainwashing people. I mean Dharma might even have used this technique and those who got out of line were sent to room 23 to keep them in check and under control/surviellance.
“as He loved Jacob” to me this indicated that whoever the He was (there’s that He/Him again) loved Jacob for reasons that we are not yet aware of, maybe he was a creation and “He” no longer loves him because something went wrong “the incident”? God loves the current inhabitants because they are trying to put things right.
This is how i see it, as God cannot see the island he could never have loved Jacob, the “HE” this refers to is the HE/HIM that has been mentioned countless times! Who is The Gaffa??!!!
+1
RealSayyid, are you Palestinian or someone of Arabic decent? I only ask this because your comments were extremely biased and borderline anti-semetic. I will admit that I’m Jewish and I have an affinity for Israel, but I have always tried to be as impartial as possible when viewing the Middle East. I just want to warn you that your hatred for Israel shows through your comments and can tend to offend many people, including J.J. Abrams. Lets try to keep political views out of a theories page for a television show, and lets try to keep an open mind to all people’s, cultures, religions, and backgrounds.
DCLostie, I’m not sure that keeping our political views off the theories page is a good idea. Not only does the show present issues of science/faith, good/evil etc., but it also presents political ideas and ideals as well. Factions who fight for control of land, perhaps valuable land. Some who want to exploit it and some who want to protect it. In addition, Locke mentions that his group is no longer a democracy, is he now a facist? So I think politics play a part in this show, just as it does with most things in life.
You are entitled to your opinion and to express it, but I don’t think the RealSayid should be told by you what he can or cannot bring up on this site. Also, don’t presume to know how J.J. Abrams feels on the subject. You might be right, but who really knows. Perhaps free speech and the free flow of ideas is what this site is all about and you may be the one who needs to keep an open mind.
LostYouth free speech begets free speech. You seem to think it ok to make disgusting anti Semite remarks and call it free speech. Then someone nicely suggests he show a little respect to everyone here by reining in his hate a little bit, and you come down on them for being narrowminded and anti free speech. he was way more polite than what RealSayyid deserved and he could of and should of told that little bigot where to go. Hell, we oughta get all those neo nazi’s and klukluxklan folks in here so to keep you happy. Maybe you can have a garden party for em all but do it on your own dime. In the meantime I’m exercising my right to free speech and sayin what DCLostie was too polite to say—RealSayyid STFU you little bigot, haul your dick outta your own ass and learn how to walk straight around decent folks, and if you miss it too bad maybe LostYouth will loan you his.
take your political argument elsewhere kiddies. lets get back to the point, similarly to micheal trying and failing to kill himself (twice), could it be that the car crash that interrupted Jack’s suicide bid in TTLG could be one of Jacobs little tricks? +1 for getting me thinking.
The eating of the fruit is seen as a distancing between Man and God, man turning away from Faith and looking towards…Science
Everything from the initial moment of time is just a mathematical equation playing out, one based on the limitations of our view on reality. God is simply fate, not a being of presence but rather of mathematical order
Great statements drawn from a theory I don’t necessarily agree with but good post+1 and from a Spanish/jewish/aboriginal descent/perspective, I thought LostYouth made a fair comment.
Excuse my lack of knowledge on biblical teachings, but wasn’t the objection to Adam and Eve’s partaking of the fruit of knowledge due to their attempt to become as knowing as God, and thusly god-like themselves? Although not religious myself, I could see a storyline implication that Jacob perhaps similarly defied God/mathematical order in a quest for knowledge and suffered the consequences.
As for the “other” debate on this thread, I’ll add my own opinion simply because some responses leave me quite surprised. While RealSayid does have a right to free speech, and to his own opinions of course, his comment was decidedly and blatantly anti-Jewish. DCLostie’s response was appropriate, he was not anti-free speech but pro-consideration for others and himself (as is his right), while acknowledging the simple fact that RS was letting his predjudices show. I’m sure that LostYouth meant well and had free speech in mind, but to take issue with DCL’s comment, while simultaneously upholding the comment of RS, gives the impression of sanctioning anti-Jewish remarks while undermining the right of anyone to object, and I do NOT feel that the comment was “fair”. I’ve many times seen comments on this board, requesting that politics and other controversial “real-world” topics be avoided, (and for good reason) a courtesy to be extended to all, by all.
Once more, I posted when I should have shut up. Apologies to all.
Thank you Ozzig…you obviously saw the point I was trying to make. Soulman, thank you also for your support but your comments are just as misguided as RealSayyid’s….middle east debate terminated.
Wow! I thought I said DCLostie was entitled to his opinion, but so is RealSayyid. The show has political aspects to it, so why can’t someone bring that up? Is this really that difficult a concept to grasp? RealSayyids comments at least tied to LOST in some way. It’s not like he came on and said “all Jews should die” and left it at that. Now that would be anti-semetic and not even comment worthy.
I like how DCLostie immediately assumes that the RealSayid must be a Palestinian or someone of arabic decent. Is that really keeping an open mind to other cultures and religions, as if no one else in the world could have these thoughts?
Why does upholding someone’s right to say something, mean I am sanctioning anti-Jewish remarks? RealSayyids comment is probably wrong, but he should be able to say it. And by upholding his right to say it, I sould not be guilty by association.