Novikov self-consistency principle
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By segwaypirate
- Novikov self-consistency principle
- Created: Apr 1, 2008
- Last updated: Dec 31, 2008
- After episode: 4.9: The Shape of Things to Come
- Status: Current
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The idea behind Novikov’s self-consistency principle is that time is self-consistent, meaning if you traveled back in time it would be to the same three dimensional brane that you left instead of creating a “new timeline” in history. In other words, you could travel back in time but physics would not allow you to change anything that would create a paradox. For example, if you went back in time and decided to shoot your own grandfather before he met your grandmother, the gun would jam or the bullet would miss or the guy would turn out to not be your real grandfather. No matter what you did the probability of succeeding would be 0. The principle suggests that it is impossible to create a paradox by going back in time.
My new theory is that LOST borrowed this idea. Michael shooting himself would have prevented him from setting in motion an action that will affect the past. Therefore Michael is essentially immortal since dieing would create a paradox.
More things to think about:
According to my theory, Desmond is immortal between 1996 and the time he had his time travel episodes. So if he had tried to shoot himself in the year 2000, he would be unable to. This is because in the year 2000, he has not yet had the time travel episode which caused him to learn Penny’s phone number. If he died in 2000 he would not be able to do the time travel and therefore would not know something that he already knows presenting a paradox. This would make the probability of Desmond dieing in the hatch explosion 0% since it would stop him from doing something he already did. See how it works?
Also this theory can potentially explain pregnancy issues. If the birth of the babies would somehow prevent something from happening in the future which has already affected the past… The mothers and or babies would have to die as it would create an issue in causality.
Locke could have done something in the future to trigger the arrival of his own father on the Island in the past so he could effectively kill his father. That means that in between the time Locke’s father arrives and when Locke does the thing that brings him to the Island, Lock would not be able to die and create a paradox. Evidence that this could be the case is when Ben shoots Locke but Locke survives since his kidney was removed. Ben would have had a 0% chance of killing Locke or preventing him from bringing his dad to the island. Could Ben understand how this all works and shoot Locke to test if Locke was invincible?
I feel episode 4.9 strengthens my theory. It would appear that Widmore and/or Ben are exploiting the self-consistency principal judging by the conversation Ben and Widmore have in Widmore’s penthouse. Ben knows that he cannot kill Widmore. I also think its possible that Ben thought his daughter to be invulnerable judging by the way he reacted when she was shot. He was surprised and thought he was in control (and probably would have chosen different last words for her).
What if someone sent their consciousness back in time to before the plane crash to save everyone. That person could do this but they would have to fake the accident and hide the survivors somewhere to make sure that they didn’t emerge until after their consciousness was sent back. Otherwise you would have no motive to go back and save them in the future. Once the “time traveler” came back to the present, they would know where the survivors have been hidden since the time of their rescue. Almost this exact same thing happens in the 1989 movie “Millennium.”
Key characters
| Short Name | Full Name | Episodes | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|
| Desmond | Desmond David Hume | 2.23, 3.17, 4.5 | 898 |
| Michael | Michael Dawson | 2.22, 1.14, 4.8 | 313 |
Key episodes
| # | Title | Aired | Central character | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 4.9 | The Shape of Things to Come | 4-24-2008 | Ben | 280 |
| 4.8 | Meet Kevin Johnson | 3-20-2008 | Michael | 95 |
| 4.5 | The Constant | 2-28-2008 | Desmond | 156 |
Yeah, I agree, that Mrs. Hawkings seems to imply that the future cannot be affected. good point
Interesting theory, segway, but I am not sure it covers some of the weird timeline thingys (that is an official term, haha) that have been going on in Lost. For instance, Des traveled back in time (or at least seemed to) and talked to Penny and told her to expect a phone call from him in 8 years. That phonecall would never have been able to happen if he hadnt traveled back because he didnt even have her number! He had to go ask her father where she lived and when he visited her she gave her number. Had he never traveled back, that phone call would have been impossible. That is just one example. I also still hold to another non-theory that I posted about on my very first post where more than one picture of Des and Penny existed on the island at once. And Penny had yet another photo on her desk when she received the call from the guys in the arctic that said they thought they located the island. Here is a link if you want to read it:
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2008/feb/05/did-anyone-else-pick-not-theor/
I am still not sure I buy off on the whole time travel theories out there but it becomes increasingly harder to explain things without time travel.
I know that your theory doesnt state that there is no time travel, just that the future cannot be changed. I think that if there is indeed time travel going on, things can be changed. Your way does make sense with Mrs. Hawking saying that the universe will course correct but I think some things can still be changed.
+1 though because your theory is original and well explained and provokes thought.
Novikov’s theory suggests that you could change the future, you just can’t change anything that would have prevented you from going back in time since that would create a paradox. Desmond’s time travel is self-consistent so there is no problem here.
I was suggesting that Michael cannot die because in the future he will affect the past and killing himself would prevent that and would create a paradox.
Aaaahhhh, I see. My most sincere apologies. I completely misunderstood. In that case, excellent point. I gave you +1 anyway so at least I dont have to feel bad about that, haha. Sorry segway.
This makes much more sense to me than the Paul Effect (that I just posted). Good job! +1
i think this is a really great explanation to why Michael can’t kill himself. It’s all about the fact that a paradox will NOT be allowed to take place, so as Ms Hawkins says - it course corrects
+1!
So simple yet so likely. I’m going to read A Brief History of Time soon…hopefully more theories arise! +1
+1 but thinking about this theory has given me a headache.
The significant point, in our Lost storyline, is the someone (Ben / Jacob?) is somehow aware of this and can confidently tell the Others that , for now, Michael cannot kill himself (see any of my theories over the last 2/3 weeks).
If I read this right, you’re positing an idea that Michael’s fate to do something in the future means that he is unable to kill himself in the present? Which, if I read you right, is an interesting way of being philosophical about the Island’s power to prevent Michael from commiting suicide.
This kind of plays into pre-determination versus free will (undoubtedly a large piece of the Lost puzzle) but layers in the time travel instances of others into the mix. Which is a neat way of looking at it. +1
AngeloComet,
Its a bit more concrete than simply fate. I’m proposing that Michael cannot kill himself in the present because in the future he will somehow manipulate time in a way that will affect the past (before he tried to shoot himself). If he somehow died he could never manipulate the past which means something that already happened would be impossible. This is a paradox and so yes in a way it is Michael’s fate to do something in the future but it has to do with the nature of time travel instead of destiny or the “Island’s power.”
I love this idea. It changes the angle of what Tom said about “the island” not allowing Michael to die. Instead of being looked at as a character, the island is now referenced as a time difference. +1
great, great job. +1 this answers a lot of problems I’ve been grappling with on LOST. this would also explain why Mikhail doesn’t seem to die—he is “destined” to do something in the “future” so he can’t die in the past or present…
i even think this explains why aaron is with kate—if aaron stays on the island, he will die, because he will soon introduce a paradox (as the other babies conceived on the island potentially introduced paradoxes) and this is why sun has to leave the island, but jin, I believe, had to stay. If he stays (back in time) then he will remain the father of the baby he helped conceive…and sun can go on to deliver the child away from the island, but if he got off the island, THAT would introduce a paradox, he would not have been able to father the baby he actually fathered!
I think this works the reverse for Claire—if she GETS OFF the island, she will have, in some way, “undone” having aaron. The only way for aaron to stay alive is for someone else to take him off the island!!!!
OK GUYS…this theory posted by segwaypirate really, really matches up with a nascent theory of mine which, until now, has been too incomplete to post, but I will work on it and post it…
btw, I’m new here…I’ve looked at theories many times, but never posted…
Let me know when that theory is done. I would like to link to it.
Even more “things to think about” to come :)
Would this imply that the events that we are watching are actually happening in the past? That the entire show is a flashback of a more distant future than the one presented in Jack’s flashfoward? If so - I would wonder when the actual ‘present’ is and who the players are. Cool theory. +1 duh.
Yup, I posted a similar theory about this a while back.
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2007/oct/21/time-travelparadox-not-really-/
Awe, I was just about to post a huge writing based on Noviki’s principle… now it’s gonna look like I’m copying you. Oh well, +1
Great theory. I was thinking the same thing but never knew it was an actual Hawking theory.
Try this on for size as well. I think this thoery adds credence to the idea that its Michael in the coffin! That is why it upsets Jack so much. Michael finally being able to die must signifiy that something horrible has happend on the island and that is why Jack is so desperate to get back. Michael and Jack were never close and after Michael killed Anna and Libby he is down right hated, why would his death upset Jack so much unless it was a huge sign of something going wrong.
What is really interesting about this theory is that it explains how a group of individuals could survive a plane crash - one of the major problems I’ve always had with the show! +1 from me.
thewhiz83,
Thats an insightful take on why Jack is so upset when he reads that Michael is dead.
Excellent theory! +1
It seems you are on to something!
This is great. (And so is the added idea from “thewhiz83”.) So with this idea, when Ben needs to ask what the date and year is, is it because he intentionally traveled back or forward in time to do something? (Like get to both Sayid and Widmore?)
So can you draw any correlation between the apparent summoning of Smokey and this time ‘difference’ that the island is and allows for in its inhabitants? (I like your thoughts so would like to hear more on this.)
Glad you liked it. It would appear that Ben knowingly do some kind of time travel. If he went to the future and then came back that would guarantee that he would live to October 2005 since he was know to be alive at that time. It also looks like he took the opportunity to address Sayid and Widmore although I don’t think he planned on ending up in Iraq judging by his expression and the clothes he wore to the desert.
It’s possible that Ben somehow changed the past which somehow triggered the smoke monster to “course correct” but I like to think that the universe has more subtle ways of course correction than a crazy smoke monster. For instance they could have been struck by lightning or hit with a meteor—both of which are more plausible than a monster made of smoke. So no, I don’t personally think that the smoke monster is a side effect of time travel or all that related to this theory.
I don’t get it. For them to live to travel back in time, wouldn’t they have to avoid deadly situations like plane crashes? If physics says a particular action should kill them, it will, and thus prevent them from, in the future, traveling back in time and setting up this kind of loop, right?
Michael, for example, tries to shoot himself in the head before he ever travels back in time. It should be the shot that prevents the time travel, not the other way round.
segwaypirate, +1 Excellent first theory, welcome! I feel much the way wtf feels, my head hurts too. :) But I loved it and enjoyed reading it.
thewhiz, I loved your addition to it too! +1 to you. :)
great theory! Also would that explain the gun not going off when Jack tried to shoot Locke?
+1
it does really make sense for many different things that have happened on the island. Great theory! it seems to explain why Jack’s father appears on the island, because he has not died yet since it is in the past. But what about the people that did die on the island? Wouldn’t they have to stay alive in order to be on the plane in the future that ends up crashing? Ben’s daughter probably died because she has only been on the island and never had a future off the island. I am just am still trying to figure out why some people did die and how that would fit into this theory? Charlie for example, Anna Lucia or anyone who was on the plane?
Segway — great thinking!!!
This would also explain how Locke could survive SUCH a fatal fall — and everything else pointed out in this thread. +1
omg this time stuff is so confusing but some of it makes sense i suppose. omg i think i’m about to post my own theory! lol
+1
Awesome theory, man.
I’d also like to add that I think some people are time traveling repeatedly, and that each time things play out differently with physics course correcting where it needs to.
Therefore, Ben is surprised when Alex dies, because she never has before.
+1!
I have something to add to this theory:
I found something to help strengthen this theory. Desmond was caught in some “time-warp” which sent him back to the past when the hatch exploded. This is important because this is where Desmond meets Charlie. According to your theory, one cannot change things that are bound to happen by going to the past. Desmond, prior to the island, has never met Charlie. But since Desmond met Charlie in the past, and his “memories” are brought back to the present, then this might explain why Desmond has these “visions” of Charlie dying constantly. Charlie is the only person Desmond recognizes from the past who is also in the present. Given this, every time Desmond tries to defy Charlie dying, a new situation presents itself for him to be killed.
Now lets go farther back… remember when Desmond forgot to push the button? Desmond also explained that he “might have caused your plane to go down”. What if this was a significant line? What if people like, Ana-Lucia, Libby, etc, were suppose to die? What if the universe is “course correcting” itself?
The Universe has a way of course correcting itself.
or is this “universe” the island?
Another interesting thing to read about is Cartesian Dualism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophyofmind)
This is an interesting philosophy to go with this theory of how Desmond travels through time.
What if there are two ways a person can go through time? The Body (physical aspect) The Mind (mental aspect)
What if Desmond can do both? When the hatch explodes, Desmond is physically sent back in time. That is why he can see and change Charlie’s death. But the universe will catch up and eventually kill Charlie.
But when Desmond is flown off the island, he is “mentally” put through the past. That is why his brain was hemorrhaging, the mind is put through time, and that is why he can remember Penny’s number, but he is not creating a Paradox, since he is not “physically” changing the past.
This is where my other theory on how “Alex” is killed. There is a way to bypass this which Ben may not know of. Alex is not meant to die presently. Ben knows this because he may have “physically” seen this coming before. However, since some of the “crew” has been “sick” (Desmond’s vision and experiences). Since Keemy may have experienced this, seeing how he can kill Alex, defying Ben’s logics. Keemy may have for seen some knowledge about Ben in the past. This may seem plausible since the capture of Alex. Keemy may have known Alex is Ben’s daughter, since she was the only one that was not sniped in the forest. Alex probably didn’t have to surrender as Ben’s daughter since her identity is already known.
It’s imposible to “physically” transit space/time due to quantum considerations. However, Mental/Conscience transit violates no Laws of Causality. The issue w/ Michael not being able to kill himself was also on “Futurama” when Fry went back to 1947 Roswell and became his own greatgrandfather. No Causality is broken because his genetics obviously could spawn a future child with the same genetics. Novikov also implies that any breach of space/time has already occurred, and MUST occur to prevent Causal Corruption. Ben and Whitmore almost seem to be transitting WorldLines (alternate images of Reality.) What are the RULES that Ben spoke of? Whitmore must have been funding the “Others” and be connected to Alvo Hanso and their experiments. By transiting Timelines a stream of conscienceness could have has physical self in an earlier point make certain investments and even “invent” technologies. It would be pointless to invent jet engines before metalurgic technology could produce them, but simple items such as using a carbon filament in light bulbs instead of another substance could easily be accomplished. Each minor change causes Causality Ripples, however Wave Theory shows that these Ripples cancel over a given timeframe. I wonder if Michael’s mother is “stephanie hawking?” I’m reading A Brief History of Time and The Nature Of Space And Time to catch up on any spoilers.
This is the best theory I’ve seen on here so far. I seriously think you’ve cracked it mate!
that doesn’t explain why they are dogs in Lost….
love this theory my fav ive read so far! +1
I’m a little late reading this, but excellent theory!! +1
It’s a good theory. The real sad fact, like so many others, is that it doesn’t matter anymore. The Swan station was sealing and discharging a rip in the island that the magnetism was leaking through. Desmond threw the switch, the station blew, and the remaining earth sealed the hole closed. A whole season was spent with the Swan station as a major factor and then it was gone. There will be no more exposure unless another rift is created.