Cancer & Immortality. Please help expand!
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By solarchap
- Cancer & Immortality. Please help expand!
- Created: Sep 3, 2007
- Last updated: Sep 19, 2008
- After episode: 3.4: Every Man for Himself
- Status: Current
- Flag this theory:
Telomerase behaves like the elixir of eternal life for cells and this is well known and documented.
— solarchap
{please read before you read this theory: Certain users have chosen to leave sarcastic/insulting/accusing comments, I have no problem with people’s opinions, WHEN put in a decent manner, but isn’t it funny they always come from users who contribute NO theories and who then skulk back into their hole and you can’t find them. I make very clear in this theory that it is guesswork, ideas, flimsy, but also mixed in with scientific fact, so take it or leave it!….Time has passed in the show since I posted this and I have other ideas now but I still think you will find this an interesting read)
Ok I started the first day of my last year at university today and one of my courses is Cancer Biology.
We were all sent the approved reading lists for books during the summer & one of them is GENOME by matt ridley.
I made sure I read it all and there was stuff in there which I believe totally relates to the plot of LOST. (Chapters 14 ‘Immortality’ & 17 ‘Death’)
Ok…..So we know…..
1) Cancer is healed on the Island (I know Ben got a tumour I’ll come back to that)
2) At least one person does not age (Richard)
(Now I’ll try not to turn this into a Biochemistry lecture :-) but you may (or may not be) unfamiliar with some stuff)
Cancer is the quintessential disease of ageing; the prime risk factor for cancer is indeed age. (Cancer can and does occur in young children (mainly as a leukemia form) and adolescents, but it is rare when considered in terms of population numbers). Also genomes or genes which kill children young are not likely to be passed on to the next generation.
The reason we age is due to Telomeres. Think of a chromosome as a shoelace, with all the genetic information stored in the lace bit, and the two little plastic bits, at the ends of the shoelace are the Telomeres.
Every time the chromosome copies itself, a little bit of the Telomere is left off and as we get older year by year, the Telomeres get shorter and shorter. So the lace bit always stays the same but the plastic ends get shorter.
In 80 year old people, Telomeres are on average five eighths as long as when at birth (American Journal of Human Genetics 55: pages 876-882 Slagboom et al).
The actual enzyme Telomerase is a genuine scientific curiosity as it bears a striking resemblance to reverse-transcriptase, an enzyme allowing viruses to cut & paste their genes into other organsims including us, as is with the case with HIV.
Research is going on now investigating whether this enzyme is the actual ancestor of all retroviruses and transposons (the original inventor of RNA to DNA transcription) and it apparently seems that Telomerase has been around since the dawn of life.
Now, in the normal ageing process, all our Telomeres shorten (on average) at the rate of about 31 letters (or nucleotides) a year (& more in certain tissues). This is why cells grow old and cease to work after a certain age. From the moment chromosomes start dividing think of Telomeres as a kind of stopwatch, shortening after fixed periods of time
Any cells which undergo damage need repair and this is a costly business ,Telomere wise, so whilst age is the prime factor, environmental factors i.e. smoking, sunburn etc also matter because a smokers lungs suffer constant damage and require constant repair as does skin when burnt, which uses up Telomere length and thus makes the cells Telomeres ‘older’ than they should be.
Cancer actively NEEDS Telomerase to sustain itself, and with Telomerase in a tumour comes literal biochemical immortality and youth.
The most famous immortal cell line still replicating today came from a cancer patient called Henrietta Lacks a woman who died in Baltimore in 1951. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Lacks)
The city of Atlanta actually recognise 11th October as Henrietta Lacks day.
Telomerase behaves like the elixir of eternal life for cells and this is well known and documented. An American company called the geron corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geron_Corp.) hit headlines in 1997 for cloning part of Telomerase and went on to immortalise many different cell types which lacked Telomerase. Nematode worms strains have been bred which in comparitive human terms, means they would be approx 350 years old. ‘Methuselah’ fruit flies have been bred that live for 120 days (twice as long as wild types).
There is a paradox to cancer & Here it is…. Shortened Telomere length means higher cancer risk, yet Telomerase which keeps Telomeres longer is necessary for a tumour! Catch-22 (hmm that book sounds familiar!!)
Also the reason that genes do not lose bits of their ends in EGG and SPERM cells is due to the presence of Telomerase whose job is to repair the frayed chromosome ends & re-lengthening them.
So!! Where are we at!!!! Ok….
Research is currently investigating the Telomerase/Dawn of Life connection, and I’ve kind of felt for ages that the Island being special and all and with it’s properties has perhaps something to do with Life itself.
We know Telomerase is associated with a type of ‘fountain of youth’ (no science fiction this is fact), cancer tumours (a disease of the genes don’t forget) have evolved to switch ‘off’ the Telomere ‘stopwatch’ and if it wasn’t for killing their host they would literally live for ever. (In fact they do live forever through immortal lines like Henrietta Lacks)
So what if the Island with it’s ‘unique properties’ biologically neutralises the Telomerase? ( a little bit similar but not TOO much similar to the plot device in Star Trek Insurrection where the planets rings had a phase effect on the planet’s inhabitants DNA keeping them young)
This could mean:
a) any tumour on anyone coming to the Island would have it’s Telomerase Genes Switched back off, literally starving the tumour of what it needs to exist in the first place hence Rose healing
b) the Telomerase in the developing embryo is ALSO neutralised but in the embryo (just like the tumour) it’s highly necessary otherwise the genes themselves would lose THEIR ends (remember the shoe-lace analogy) and a cumulative process begins where the information to grow & develop is lost as every time the cell divides it loses more and more of the genes which tell it how, where & when to grow, and thus…..the child dies.
Also wasn’t there something in the LOST experience about an orangutang called JOOP and some life extension project?
Now I said I’d come back to Ben & please remember I don’t profess to have all the answers & HEY!!!! I have only done day 1 of cancer biology today & reading one book over summer doesn’t qualify me to answer everything !! :-) So whilst I’m confident about everything I have just written, this is going to be a wild guess ok!
There is another gene called TP53 (aka P53) which has the superb name of ‘Guardian of the Genome’ it’s job primarily being to tell cells to commit suicide for the greater good of the body. It is the main anti-cancer defence that we have. It is no coincidence that the majority of cancers correlate with a broken TP53 gene.
So why did Ben develop a tumour if his Telomerase is neutralised?
Perhaps because a) his TP53 is broken ( a completely natural and scientifically simple & plausible explanation) so why is it broken and no one elses?
Perhaps b) because he does NOT have a communion with the Island (which lets not forget allowed a man with a snapped back to walk) and lets face it, he gives the Island nothing yet takes takes takes. All the Islanders who healed if I am not mistaken have done it quickly (reminds me of Mikhails statement ‘It works differently here…perhaps a day and a half!’ (for a punctured lung!!!!!), yet Ben took time to recover from his back op, in fact he was still not 100% by the last episode of season3 AND his wound even got infected.
I also noticed concerning Richard that the day of the Purge, when he removed his gas mask, he did it very hesitantly. So he doesn’t age yet is wary of physical harm unlike Mikhail who seems to die several times a week and doesn’t seem to mind the harm!!! Ok ok as I say those last bits are highly speculative
and finally there is something to the fact that cloned animals, which have all suffered from Telomere loss in the nucleus as a result of the cloning process…die younger. http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/Telomeres.html)
Dolly was euthanised earlier than her projected lifespan too.
I think I’m onto something with some of this! (about time I hear you all say!) but i need help.
Can anyone perhaps expand on this for me?
Thanks for taking the time to read all that :-)
Key characters
| Short Name | Full Name | Episodes | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ben | Benjamin Linus | 3.20, 4.9, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 1629 |
| Joop | Joop | 65 | |
| Richard | Richard Alpert | 289 |
Key episodes
| # | Title | Aired | Central character | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3.4 | Every Man for Himself | 10-25-2006 | Sawyer | 95 |
Solarchap: I think this is an excellent post. Masterful even. I had a very poor understanding of Telomerase prior to your theory andI think it is the core principle (or a mainone anyway) for what Dharma may have been trying to “solve.”
There have been many theories that the island is under a protective bubble. A test tube if you will? A laboratory where conditions are ripe for this type of experimentation. Some sort of life extension or immortality angle fits my way of thinking.
And ironically, while Ben may not be able to benefit from the island’s properties like others, he could possibly be in support of them. It could be a sacrifice he has to make to the island. For what purpose? I can’t be sure, but my instinct tells me Annie is at the core of Ben’s motivation for whatever outcome he is trying to Benipulate.
Excellent post mate! +1
Thanks Stip….I’m now blushing! :-)
Dude… that was… simply awesome…
Yes, I think you’re onto something here also.
thanks Prof O, (King Arthur!) I’ve been wanting to come up with something original for ages!
Many thanks Kat (Lady Guinevere! [see Prof O’s post on 4 answers please!]), I don’t have any suggestions for Rose’s inner self-awareness, I can only come up with the lame idea that perhaps the cancer, as it died ,was not causing her physiical pain any more & she might have felt better….
as I said Lame! I think I’ve burned me brain out today….1st day back to uni, a hundred faces hadn’t seen for 4 months, and then formulating my half-theory! Thanks for the praise, I’m lapping it all up :-) I better be careful though coz my head is expanding at an exponential rate and I’ll end up like Michael ironside’s victim in Scanners LOL
solarchap: Excellent post, dude. If this is your idea of half a thing, I’m really looking forward for the whole of it. +1 from me.
solarchap - excellent theory!! It makes a lot of sense but if your theory is correct why would babies conceived off the island survive while babies conceived on the island die? If the Telomerase in the developing embryo is neutralised it shouldn’t make any difference where the child was conceived but rather at what age the embryo comes to the island. Once the baby develops past the 36th week it should be fully developed and simply gaining weight. Of course it also opens up some issues with children. Wouldn’t children stop growing since they would stop aging on the island?
Regardless this is a very interesting idea. +1 from me!!!
Hi Jukin, as I said…a half theory…needs more research! :-) but.I thought about the conception thing…..I’ve only formulated this all today so I’m still thinking hard about it all ;-)
The most important point for Telomerase would definitely be in the development of the HOX or Housekeeping Genes (the main template from which every part of the body is fromed), this development is no different in fruit flies to mice to humans, indeed they are all remarkably similar, and this occurs at the beginning of embyryology.
If conceived OFF island one could surmise that the HOX development was fine, and therfore arriving on the problem as far as that goes would be fine i.e the ‘bauplan’ or body-blueprints have been hard wired genetically already with a NORMAL assistance from Telomerase, and are therefore not susceptible to any degradation.
The point about children stopping growing is interesting and we never of course get to see the children properly (last time I think was when Jack saw Cindy when he was in the cage and the 2 kids were there) so I can’t add any more to that But rest assured I’ll be thinking about it!
Cheerz for your comments much appreciated.
Wow! I’ve been really busy lately and haven’t been able to spend much time here. But this was really really interesting! Great work solar!
+∞
How do you think Jacob comes into this? He seems to be able to cure cancer. Can he perhaps control the Telomerase production in some way?
solarchap: Absolutely brilliant!!! +1 You explained Telomerase in a way that even I could understand well. And yes, I think you’re definitely on to something.
All this after reading one required summer reading book and your first class? I can’t wait for more.
In fact, it even made me chuckle abit thinking about you sitting in this very serious class about a most important subject and in your head you are still thinking about how it would relate to Lost!!!!
Congrats on an excellent theory and good luck this year, I hope we learn more too.
Stip: Benipulate? Should that be TM’d or is that a stipism? Either way it’s very cool.
I found a study published in 2000 that mentioned :
Telomere shortening in telomerase-negative somatic cells leads to the activation of the TP53 protein and the elimination of potentially unstable cells. So the shortening of the telomere is the cause of aging/cancer and the TP53 is the resulant action the body takes in response - right?
The TP53 is what helps eliminate the unstable (cancer) cells. It would seem then that this TP3 activitation would come part and parcel with any cancer healing properties of the island - especially since Rose had it full blown when she got there.
I think Ben would have to have some other outside cause for his TP53 to be damaged…
Found a 2001 study -
Telomerase activity is a radiation-inducible function.
Induction of telomerase activity by radiation does not generally appear to be controlled by the TP53-dependent DNA damage response pathway.
Perhaps there is radiation involved with some sort of experiment that Ben is using in his great Benipulation plan.
I think this lends to Ben being a mastermind of whatever these experiments may be.
Interestingly enough there is a study that shows stress shortens the telomeres as well… though I’m not sure if it can short circuit the TP53 the way radiation does.
If I could find more info on that, this might (?) somehow with faith vs the lack of it and.fit in .. such as what you see with Locke and walking vs not walking.
Sorry that last post got messed up. I’m trying to say not having faith causes a stress response that would shorten the telomere. A result would not be cancer due to the TP53 “damage clean up” effect of the island, but may have an effect like when Locke was not able to walk.
Perhaps faith can cause regrowth of the telomere - again avoiding a cancer like state because of the TP53 … would this lead to longevity?
…just taking a stab at this - correct me if I’m wrong…
ok wow, thanks for all the input guys & you’ve all given me plenty more to think about! Roger : I’m thinking hard about Jacob & I keep remembering that statement made by the producers that Jacob is to the LOST universe as Emperor Palpatine is to the Star Wars Universe & I wonder would Palpatine do any healing, but to be honest I just don’t know!
Annie: LOL coz thats exactly how that class went for me! I couldn’t get LOST out of my head! & Stip’s ‘BENipulate’ is just great!
agentxxx: I can see you have done your homework! & I must admit my TP53 was as stated a very wild guess, my head has been buzzing today! It’s funny you mention radiation as I asked the question on yahoo answers about Locke saying to Ben about keeping meat in the fridge & someone else posited radiation/radioactivity as a suggestion.
Regards the stresses/factors initiating TP53 response there are actually 7 (i didn’t want to turn my theory into a bicohemistry lecture so I didn’t list them all) and whilst I have no real concrete evidence to suport TP53 being broken in Ben, there are also genetic disorders and syndromes which can specifically lead to TP53 mutation i.e. Li-Fraumeni syndrome which would stil be an inside-cause but I tread carefully here as that part was the wild specualtory part! The ‘faith vs the lack of it’ is very interesting & reminds me of Kat’s reply on this theory about why Rose KNEW her cancer was gone….some sort of inner-strength thing perhaps & that would definitely include Locke.
Well thanks all for such enthusiasm and kind comments, I’ll sure sleep well tonight :-)
+1, of course. Really great contribution, and I don’t think it’s so lame to speculate that Rose knew she’d been healed by noticing that the possible pain caused by her cancer was gone. Cancer can really hurt, and she was in the advanced, “Let’s take that trip you always dreamed of,” stage.
Question: Is there anything about Juliet’s pre-Island fertility research that buttresses this idea?
Thanks pabodie, I’m just about to goto bed as its 1 in the morning over here but tomorrow I will rewatch the episodes concernng julieettes fertility research promise! One little thing is in my head…something about when Richard shows her the xray of the Womb & Juliette says it’s from a patient of about 70 or something like that & he says no the patient was 26 or therabouts..relating to the fact that overworked/ abnormal telomerase activtity can accelerate the ageing progress making cells older than they really are because they have shortened so much.
anyway thanks for reading my theory & it’s nite-nite from solar…been a heck of a day! :-)
Wow a lot has already been discussed, I agree this is a fantastic theory. It really ties a few things together. Great work Solar +1
poof!
Hey, Agent_XXX, you said “A result would not be cancer due to the TP53 “damage clean up” effect of the island” and I just remembered this conversation between Ben and Juliet, in S3E16 “One of us”:
JULIET: You have a tumour.
BEN: What?
JULIET: When you told me about your back pain, I said that I would take some X-rays to see if it was a small fracture or a herniated disc. But that’s not your problem. Your problem is a large tumour surrounding your L-4 vertebrae. [Ben examines the X-rays] You’re surprised.
BEN: Well you just told me I have cancer, Juliet, of course I’m surprised.
JULIET: No I told you that you had a tumour.
So a tumour, yes, but not cancer!
WoW!
I’m astonished… My hair is blowing back. I thank you for your theory standing ovation
you’ve certainly got my vote +1
Nice theory! +1 from me also.
I think we should call the authors of Lost and ask them to hire solarchap so they can figure out how to explain this complicated theory to the general public, because Solarchap seems to know how ;)
Wow, simply amazing. +1 Not only does it make perfect sense, but I think it can be gotten across fairly easily to an audience. Just goes to show the jester is often the wisest man in court—solar, you are well named.
thanks everyone….I’m getting a bit worried now! if this turns out to be wrong I’ll have to go into hiding! LOL :-)
I can’t take all the credit here, it was the book Genome that got me thinking and talking to my cancer biology professor yesterday helped me formulate this. Heres the mad thing though, she watches LOST too & never made the connection!
Just goes to prove titles aren’t everything. How cool! Thanks for going out on a limb to share this. We’ll hold a parachute to catch you should you fall out of your tree. wink
Here’s something silly I thought about when reflecting on this post: Radioactive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw5IIIGZjL8
Cheers Agentxxx….one problem she will probably be expecting top-notch work from me all year now & I got beer drinking plans instead!
‘Radioactive’ !! them rockers look almost as old as me!! LOL
Parachute will be fine as long as Kate & Juliette are holding it and they are covered in chocolate spread and are acting as a nudey-tag team wrestling duo waiting to show me pleasure & pain in that LOST dual-theme way!!
solarchap: Bravo! This is fascinating material! I had looked at similar information when I saw the episode about Ben’s cancer, and had wondered, if it may apply. I also took into consideration Juliette’s sister and the fact that she had cancer and Juliette was successful in her attempts with impregnation. I believe this is why Alpert recruited Juliette. I think it’s all tied in. +1
cheers dabiatchishere I’m just about to watch the Juliette & her sister episodes again see if it sparks anything off. :-)
solarchap: I would be very interested in your assessment! Thanks!
Anyone a little more intelligent than me wanna tackle the connection to the “special properties”., such as electro-magnetic radiation and its effect on telomerase etc.. i looked up a lot of info., but its difficult for me to wrap up in a nice neat bow. sayid: the last time i heard of concrete being poured over everything in this way was cheyrnobal{sp?}…. if u look at the blast door map the swan appears to be re-built., with the old or blocked halls etc… im assuming this was the result or the “incident”when brutha desmond turned the key the sky turning purple., what could this{uv?} be the result of? the sudden release if the electromagnetic field {electromagnetic pulse} .i dunno…
Hi Thali,
When you say ‘the incident’, do you mean THE incident or the time des turned the key? I’m a bit confused, my understanding is that the incident happend before des ever got there and the protocol (entering the code) began after it happened.
But you might have meant something else! so get back to me & let me know, also I am trying to establish a better connection between the island’s properties & telomerase but it will no doubt take some time & thats if i can find a connection! :-)
Anyone a little more intelligent than me wanna tackle the connection to the “special properties”., such as electro-magnetic radiation and its effect on telomerase etc.. i looked up a lot of info., but its difficult for me to wrap up in a nice neat bow.
If u look at the blast door map the swan appears to be re-built., with the old or blocked halls etc… im assuming this was the result of THE incident{10ft thick concrete walls}{a lesser, but similar event to desmonds?} agentxxx mentioned radiation, which made me think of electro magnetism,volcanic rock, electromagnetic radiation etc. sayid: the last time i heard of concrete being poured over everything in this way was cheyrnobal{sp?}…. when brutha desmond turned the key the sky turning purple., what could this{uv?} be the result of? the sudden release if the electromagnetic field {electromagnetic pulse} .i dunno… what intensity of radiation could be visible to the human eye, even for a flash…the emp however would have put the electricity on the island completely out i believe… and there has yet to be any signs of radiation poisoning etc.. but im just babbling at this point… i have been working A LOT of hrs..
All good food for thought…
Mmmm Chocolate
Dabiatchishere, I watched those episdoes again, but nothing new reallay sprung to mind (well not yet anyway!), apart from of course the fact that Richard commented that Julietete had created life where none existed, and I guess thats’ pretty important! That did make me think of Locke’s ‘Immaculate Conception’ thing, would that not also be a case of Life exisitng where none existed. Making me ask myself the question…why does this amazing island NOT let LIFE (or human life at least) be born? We know the mothers and babies die, but it’s basically DNA replication right? so why let the DNA of say the plant or tree-life prosper (I assume the plants and trees reproduce?). What is it about human DNA, a code for life, that this island does not let flourish from the very beginning? I still feel Telomerase will come into this in one way or another & I’ll keep on trying to think & Try hard to create some sort of link.
Thali I’m looking into E/M fx’s on cells & telomerase & will report back if I find anything out, my field is Cell biology and I don’t know that much about physics & stuff But I’ll check it all out.
solarchap: I think you will find the answers where you’re looking! I know that whatever it is, they are probably linked together. I believe the two are related, and hold the key to both of those mysteries. Good luck with your pursuit! And with your studies!
Cheers! I should be studying now but Its all LOST LOST LOST! & a few drinks inbetween :-)
solarchap: You should be toasting a few! After posting this theory, and all the positive feedback you’ve received, you deserve it, dude! Party on!
Solar I don’t know how I missed this theory but shamefully it seems I did. Can I make it up to you by saying how much I liked it?!
Thought you might also be interested to read this article which I think might explain why children on the island need to age a little…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4003063.stm
Basically the suggestion is that our bodies keeping growing and aging until a point is passed at which our cells start degenerating. This particular scientist thinks he may have found a way to stop this process. If this were true it is my feeling that humans would have to age a little in order to survive. A baby that stayed a baby forever would not live very long as it would be killed by external forces more powerful than it. Therefore it needs to grow to adulthood at least. What if Dharma had found away to stop the degenerative process rather than the aging process?
+1 for an excellent theory and an excellent debate.
dab…I intend to rock until I drop but hopefully not until the conclusion of LOST!
mrssawyer, thanks so much for your kind comments, I was a bit taken aback actually that it went down so well.
I checked that link out, many thanks for that, it was very interesting, and also there was another link at the bottom of that one which was also interesting!
The degenerative process being stopped by Dharma is a very good suggestion, and would help to explain the Islands healing abilities and would staisfy criteria regards the children too. I am convinced the answers to these particular conundrums are definitely something biological , scientific, genetic and will be able to be explained in a straightforward way. Dharma stopping the degenerative process would fit that bill too. It’s the pregnancy thing which keeps me awake at night (amongst so many other LOST mysteries!), human-life thats conceived or created there does not flourish….WHY!!!???!!! aaaarrrggghhhh :-) I didn’t actually consider my post to be a proper theory, because I felt it was more of a ‘prelude to a theory’ with random (but interesting!) facts with only one real hypothesis, about the Neutralisation of Telomerase, a wild stab in the dark! and even I feel thats shaky and needs more thining about! but my gut feeling is that, whether I’m right or wrong, near or far with that hypothesis, that it will in the end, relate to biological repair mechanisms with Telomerase as my main candidate & will be the result of scientific ‘tinkering’ i.e Dharma or through some physical force i.e electromagnetic resonance (another wild stab!) some weird meteorite deposit from the crater (an even more wilder stab!) or at least some tangible physical phenomena. Great comments, cheers for the link & roll on february! :-)
Hey solarchap nice theory, very well thought out. I studied immunology for four years and done some study on cancer immunology. I agree that the island has unique biological features. An interesting add on would be to find out why the embryos die when they reach the third trimester which the others stated on the island(if the baby is conceived on the island). This is an intereseting article which could help(www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=419552) Its a long read but i recommend reading the abstract and the discussion. “However, because telomerase activation alone does not necessarily result in telomere elongation in vitro (in humans), other factors such as telomere binding proteins could be involved in telomere length regulation at this stage of embryogenesis” “Telomere elongation during embryogenesis could be critical to ensure normal telomere length segregation from one generation to the next and could have direct effects on regeneration, aging, and carcinogenesis during postnatal life.” These two quote from the discussion offer a potential insight to the main question concerning the deaths of the embryos on the island is that when the baby is conceived on the island are telomere functions altered in some way? Also further studying the third trimester of pregnancy could maybe help find out why the embryo dies. On the whole i think u have a solid theory +1.
why thankyou shevy, thats right good of you & thanks for the link, I’ll check pubmed out, you know the score, I’ve been forced to critically review paper after paper and am finally getting a handle on it. There was a time when even the abstract gave me trouble!
Whilst I am researching telomeres like mad, that parts not going to come in lectures for a good few weeks yet, & I’m forced to struggle thorugh cell cycle checkpoints & the kinase family of proteins all heavy going too. Want to do more on the third tri-mester too but my brain is going to explode soon! haha! your comments are much appreciated and I will definitely read that article cheers!
WOW Solarchap!…I must say, I am very impressed!! :) This is awesome! I really enjoy learning new things and I really loved reading this!! I had just started reading about DNA molecules!
Have you heard of the Fibonacci Sequence? or the golden ratio or golden spiral? Well, I have been researching the golden ratio and phi because I believe it has several connections to Lost. DNA is one of them. Within a spiral drawn according to the golden mean, triangles, squares and pentagrams can be perfectly connected. Adding to these basic geometric units, we construct more complex forms, such as the dodecahedron, which is the pattern for DNA. I won’t get into all the golden ratio stuff. I was just wondering if you had heard of it and what you thought about it. :)
+1 Great Post! I think you are on to something!!
very very nice +++1
Telomerase is not really active in somatic cells, but it is in germ cells (sperm and eggs). If somehow telomerase was “neutralized,” then likely there would be deleterious effects on these cells, the very cells that are responsible for reproduction. I think it mentioned in the show that men have a several-fold higher sperm count than normal. This would not be possible if telomerase was somehow neutralized (I believe, in an animal model, that telomerase-null mice are actually sterile). Your theory does not account for this.
skeptic, apologies for delay, have been away for few weeks; do you mind if I ask where you are getting the information about telomerase not being active in somatic cells? list me the scientific journal, authors and dates & I’ll give it a good reading. There is a lot of controvesy about this, and it is true that telomerase is certainly down-graded or repressed in somatic cells but it is highly active in the germ-line cells especially in embryology and for the fetus so I’m not sure what you are getting at?
as for your point about reproductive cells I point you back to point b): the Telomerase in the developing embryo is ALSO neutralised but in the embryo (just like the tumour) it’s highly necessary otherwise the genes themselves would lose THEIR ends (remember the shoe-lace analogy) and a cumulative process begins where the information to grow & develop is lost as every time the cell divides it loses more and more of the genes which tell it how, where & when to grow, and thus…..the child dies.
i.e. it could affect the embryo. I hasten to add to you, I used and stated carefully the word ‘neutralised’ as I was simpy trying to propose some mechanism for this. you believe that telomerase-null mice are sterile, this belief is wrong, there have been studies of wild-type mutants that have shown to be sterile but the enzymatic environment highly affects this and is contirved to each particular experiment; do some research, try pubmed or science direct and read some journals, then get back to me as I’m not sure you have stated your case properly, or at best it was unprepared.
I couldn’t find any of your own theories to read, will you be putting one on soon?
Solarchap,
I get it, you’re offended that I’ve questioned your theory, so you take some pointed shots at me and imply that you’ve approached this very scientifically and that I have not. I would be upset too if I invested a lot of time into a theory that turned out to be flimsy at best.
“do you mind if I ask where you are getting the information about telomerase not being active in somatic cells?”
Are you kidding me? Do I really have to cite a publication for this? It is well-established that telomerase is active in germ cells while limited in somatic cells; I won’t spend the time trying to convince you what is essentially common knowledge in the scientific community. Plus, you’ve completely missed my point. Telomerase is an essential component of germ cells (i.e. sperm). If telomerase is “neutralized,” why would the men have increased sperm counts or exhibit increased fertility? If anything, you’d expect the opposite.
About the embryo dying, yeah, I get it, no telomerase for embryo = death, wow, genius. My point is that if telomerase were really “neutralized,” people wouldn’t be getting pregnant in the first place. How can a neutralization of telomerase lead to increased fertility? It can’t!
Now you can try rearranging your theory to account for this, or spend all day on pubmed trying to find obscure references for your rebuttal, but it’s not worth it dude. Go back to the drawing board.
Wow. I can’t wait to see the Lost episode entitled “Telomerase and Somatic Cells.”
Again we find ourselves discussing minutiae that is so technical that it is not accessible to the average viewer, cannot credibly be put into the mouth of a character, isn’t interesting to the Lost viewer, and can’t be incorporated and fully explained in a 44 minute episode.
Oh, and by the way, we don’t know that Ben had cancer. He had a tumor. After it was taken out, Jack told Juliet she would want to biopsy it to see if it was malignant. At this point we have ZERO (0) (nada) (creationist IQ) facts to support the contention that Ben had cancer.
Quarantine: yeah but educated people always have fun discussing these things, sorry if you didn’t. you are right about the tumour, we don’t know, but that doesn’t stop people from guessing; and perhaps you should watch how much work goes into making just one episode of LOST, it is a truly DEEP programme, with deep minutae, perhaps not telomerase, but minutae nonetheless. Try not to let it all go over your head!
skeptic :me old mucker, I aint offended by you, but I should point out to you that scarcasm is the recourse of a buffoon. Genius mate genius like your own theoires…….!?!?!?! yes theories are there to be questioned, I admit in my own theory that it’s only half a theory, flimsy as you put it, spot on it is flimsy, but hwrees your stuff then? nowhere thats where! your an armchair critic who has nothing to offer, or am I wrong?
and my reply to you is still valid….YES!! which journal???; I deal with journals ona daily basis and if someone asked me it would be no hassle to jot down a reference, but it’s obviously too much hassle for a person like yourself who has no time to jot down a few words but has plenty of time to armchair snipe and pontificate.
and WTF are you going on about? yes we all know telomerase is highly active in germ cells, but it’s also higly active in mitochondria, which live quite happily in somatoic cells.
my flimsy theory if you read it properly states quite clearly that the telomerase/star trek type plot device is nothing more than a thought, however I was right to include it about a show where on an island people don’t get cancer (or it goes into remission) and where people heal mysteriously and there are preganancy issues, or is that not ok with you skeptik?
I CAN’T WAIT to read your theory if you get around to it, do let me know when you have one ready.
this site is about guessing, getting it right, getting it wrong, there are so many layers to lost so EXCUSE ME for contributing as opposed to you the armchair supremo :-)
Wow too many comments to read. It was genius. Not many people can say they can relate actual science to a tv show. I know I can’t. That being said though, it is a tv show and I’m sure somewhere down the line one of the writers/producers maybe thought of this as part of an explaination but like everyones said about timeloops and most everyones theory about how the Island heals or whatever it does, this just comes off as too hard to explain on tv. Most people want a simple explaination(your shoeloace) not words they can’t pronounce. So I personally doubt seeing this even come up. Let me just finish with; genius genius genius. +50 if I could.
Great theory Solarchap! One thing I am really questioning is Richard, why hasn’t he aged? Who is he? Where the hell did he come from?
Besides the great theory you actually taught me something about cancer & why our bodies age, and you made it interesting. Thank you
that is just PURE brilliance. Thank you xxxxx
I’d love to know what mickey mouse university you attend, where popular science books such as Matt Ridley’s Genome are on the reading list! Seriously, you have reduced what is a very complex, multifactorial biological process into a very stupid theory of cancer and aging. Having a theory for the show is one thing but posting this nonsense as credible science is not! Several of the comments are now crediting your rambling nonsense as helping them to understand the aging process and cancer. Try reading a real textbook on the subject. Though in fairness, some overly simplistic rape of science fact is quite likely to be the final answer to the secrets of the show.
In the mysteries of lost, there are the big ones like wehat is the smoke monster and why doesn’t Richard age, etc. And there is the piddly stuff, like who’s in the coffin and who fathered Sun’s baby, etc. This theory took on one of the big issues, and the author did a good job of it.
If a research expert in this field feels differently, then s/he should state their credentials and present their facts to refute the information. And no need to insult in the process. I notice the latter was done but not the former.
Awesome.. you definitely have me thinking.. i definitely think that it is something to consider.. But would the creators of lost really know all of this scientific information? Perhaps, but to me unlikely.. But awesome theory.
wonderful theory!!
+1
reynardfox9,
another hidden armchair pontificator.
I goto the University of Greenwich in London, there is nothing ‘Mickey Mouse’ about it. Matt Ridley has indeed written a popular science book, which IS on Professor Lauren Pecorino’s reading list for students.
Both names I just mentioned are established, check them out. Matt ridley is not just a popular science writer, the guy has more qualifications than you could ever dream of. EVERY thing I wrote scientific wise is as accurate as can be, I have read many text books on caner, in fact my tutor as mentioned Lauren Pecorino wrote her own book, check it out, ‘The Molecular Biology of Cancer’, which I have read several times.
Do you think site-users want to read about EGF pathways or the single nucleotide polymorphisms in P53? I don’t think so because this site is about LOST and I tried very loosely to tie this all in. As Ozzig quite rightly points out why don’t you “state your credentials and present their facts to refute the information”, more than likely because you don’t have any. All your comment did was snipe and point, you have no credibility and as usual with you armchair snieprs, I notice, NO theories whatsoever.
For any people who have read my theory who have learned a little about cancer and aging, let me reassure you everything I have written is accurate. It IS a very complex subject, it IS a multi-layered step-process, but why the hell would I want to go THAT deep when I can use nice simple metaphors and have some fun into the bargain. I am waiting to get your repsonse Reynardfox9, I can prove my credentials if needbe, what about you?
I’ll try and find you in other posts, so you can establish that you are not just an ignormaus who snipes, but one place I WON’T be able to find you will be by searching through any theories you have written. Funny that from someone who had so much to say in the sarcastic uneducated unknowledgable and uniformative way that you put it.
Waiting….
wow what a surprise, Reynardfox9 literally joined this site the same day as leaving their sniping and inaccurate comments and I can’t find head nor toe of him/her now.
There are a few maldjusted users on this site who like to create multiple identities. How very exciting for them.
Solar: This theory is brilliant!
I said so initially, and I will say so again. I would not allow comments from “The LT Peanut Gallery” deter you in any way. They have being taking swipes at every single good theorist in hopes of driving them away!
Their nasty little ways, don’t fool anyone around here, who has half a brain!
really a great theory
SolarChap, I can see you know who exactly has been ragging your theory under different names, same as I saw as well. Good luck on that. Just remember, not every troll is him.
Dabs, lockeko & ozzig,
many thanks for your comments, I actually stopped using this site for a while because of the trolls and I felt the site took a general downturn in quality.
I come back to find it still ‘a tale of two cities’ but the trolls seem to have either exponentially increased in number, or some sad act must be very very busy on his own!
lockeko, man, my hat is off to you, you did not let them hound you off the site, I am glad you are still on here.
Dabs, “LT peanut gallery”…..LOL class! and very apt! brilliant!
ozzig, appreciate the comments, and you are right, not everyone is the troll, but it makes you feel that way doesn’t it!
what happend to Kat & the jazprof & profozone?
cheers for your comments guys good to see the old faithfuls still here!
I appreciate a researched hypothesis, but….. I hate to say it, reynardfox9 is right (although very mean about it). I have a PhD in genetics and molecular biology. This theory just doesn’t hold water. First, a decrease in telomer length isn’t the major cause of cancer. It’s usually point mutations and chromosome rearrangement (note BCR-Abl). Any alteration of telomerase and/or P53 would only effect about 40-60% of human cancers, in my opinion. You could have extremely long telomers your whole life and eventually you will still get cancer. Elongating telomeres may eventually extend life to a small degree, but it could only put a small dent in cancer incidence. Second, malignant cells don’t need telomerase to continue in immortality. Chromosomes of HeLa cells and others would end-join till the cows come home. I used to be excited about the promise of extending telomere length until I did more research into it. It’s not the holy grail as touted by some. Cancer related mechanisms (cell death, cell replication, chromosome duplication, etc.) are very complex. Boiling them down into two proteins, telomerase & P53, may be appealing to the general public when written in this type of theory, but is not a viable hypothesis. Sorry
taffelion,
Richard dawkins speaks about some professor who had been researching some hypothesis for about 15/20 years, and one day whilst giving a talk, another scientist in the audience asked a question which the professor realised debunked his theory immediately.
In the spirit of true-science, the professor said “My dear fellow, I have been wrong all these years, and I thankyou for enlightening me”
After some of the troll-ific responses I have got, I say in reply to yours: ‘My dear taffelion…..I have been wrong all these months, and I thankyou for enlightening me’ (!)
Since posting this a fair while back now, I have just completed my final year, last exam was thursday and I hope to graduate in middle, so my knowledge has improved somewhat, not majorly, but somewhat. I have also had the fortune to have 2 correspondences with Michio Kaku, the theoretical physicist, I emailed him specifically about the telomerase problem, and guess what….he is a LOST fan!!!
anyway so he put me straight like you have on a few things. You have to admit though, the ‘theory’ wasn’t bad as a guess at that time, but since then I have been learning neuropharm, immunolgy and human molecular biology and there is also a neuroscientist on this site, seedy, who writes very intersting stuff.
I am now thinking that the effect the island has on the sperms multiplies the antigens way above the norm, and with 93 identified immunoregulators in sperm, that may be causing severe pathological problems for the pregnant mothers. Let me know what you think, and have you got any jobs going! Is it going to be hard at my age (38 in fortnight) to compete with compete with the youngsters in this field?
Thankyou for stating your case professionally and couteously.
I like Lost because it challenges us (each at our own level) to to tease out some sense from the multitude of clues presented. It’s the ultimate mystery that holds the appeal, and anyone can join in. It’s fun to see scholars at play with ideas. It proves to me that TV is not yet a vast wasteland. Not yet, anyway.
I spent the time to read all of your theory and I find it extremely plausible (if even correct.)
I just wanted to put my two-sense in and suggest that maybe only those who do not age are whom were born on the island. I mean, the babies and children grow up until a certain point, but once they reach a certain age (like Richard) they don’t age.
There’s no way to actually prove this since our only true example is Richard (being a “hostile” and seeminly always FROM the island) and he is comparible to Ben (who has aged since we now KNOW he was NOT born on the island). But why was he lying about being “one of the few born on this island” it for so long? Hmmm…
Idk, I’m new to this site so I could be completely wrong.. just throwing an idea out there. Good job, I gave you +1
So if cancer is caused (in part) by the aging process and Rose no longer has cancer on the island, then Rose is not aging on the island. Futher proof that our normal concepts of time and space do not work on the island. If time no longer has meaning it would appear to heal (John, Rose) BUT could also be the reason why babies concieved on the island die before birth. They are not growing at a rate needed to develop because the island timeline is not normal.