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Wow, really really amazing. What I love most about your description is the way in which you’ve shown Des trying to do the right thing only to have some ironic outcome—which is very like other narratives we’ve seen on the show. I was also afraid that Des was reversing himself—now willing to sacrifice Charlie to get Penny, but your explanation is better and makes for better character development.

Nice post Prof. Call me crazy, but I really dont think Desmond or anyone else see’s the future. Desmond see’s the past. I also think that Ben is one that see’s the past. For example, when Ben told Locke to be careful when freeing Cooper’s mouth, it seemed as if he knew Locke’s dad would bite him. It almost seemed as if Tom knew also. Tom had his electric taser on hand before Locke even freed his dads mouth. I just think that they have seen these events before, as in the past.

Nice thoery. The only thing I (slightly) disgree on is that while I understand you’re saying Desmond hid his latest visions from Charlie, there’s no reason they should be hidden from us. If he saw Claire being saved and saw the terrible clashes on the beach above, why wouldn’t we see him seeing them? He could still lie to Charlie, only we would know it for sure, otherwise it’s pure speculation. The fact that we didn’t see those visions, esp the one about Claire&Aaron, led me to believe that Desmond didn’t actually see that at all. Which makes part of what you say still true, that Desmond led Charlie to his death. That perhaps it was Charlie’s false hope of C&A being saved that led him to letting himself drown.

I think the more important point is if he didn’t see C&A being saved, why would he tell Charlie that?

This point of view also points us to Desmond’s previous flashes being the ones that needed to be followed, not broken. If Charlie had been struck by lightning and died, noone would have been able to open the Looking Glass’s jamming, thereby preventing Ben’s supposed tragedy of the Losties’ rescue.

jaz: Thanks kindly! :-)

bad: Yeah, there are a few folks who view the narrative that way. I’m not one of them. But who knows? :-)

crbolosan: I’m not sure I follow. The writers of the show hide all kinds of things from us. I presume they want us to scratch our heads about what Desmond really saw, if anything. Or, more likely, they’d like us just to believe everything Desmond said only to be shocked later to learn he lied. As for Claire and Aaron being rescued… I guess I wasn’t all that clear in the post, but I’m guessing Desmond did not see that, and only made it up. What he did see is that Penny would be contacted. He just guessed that contacting her would lead to rescue and he assumed that rescue would avoid the bad things he saw happening on the beach because Charlie was present in those visions. The reason Desmond would lie to Charlie and tell him that he saw Aaron and Claire rescued is because he knew it would take that to get Charlie to contact Penny. This was demonstrated to be true, because Charlie asked for confirmation on the point of Claire’s and Aaron’s rescue at least once.

LC: Excellent point, as always.

As usual your thoughts are ensightful. I wish some of the recent influx of new users would go back and read all of your theories, for two reasons. 1) so that they would know to formulate an idea that is original and thought provoking. 2) so that when they do have an original idea they would put a little substance behind it to back it up (some on island clues or evidence).

Back to the theory, if the character of Desmond develops, as I sure that it will, his ‘honor’ which has eluded him for so long has to be his primary concern. How will he do that? I think that by taking a more proactive role in the guidance of the survivors, and truly ‘putting himself out there’ for starters. He is still acting like a selfish little boy who only wants his own desires. For him to truly evolve I believe that he must put his own selfish interests aside and work for the good of the many. It would seem to me that the flashes are given to him so that he can and should do what is best for all the survivors, not just his own rescue.

So right, tharde. If my ideas on this are correct, even though Desmond was more “advanced” in his recent decision than he has been in the past, he still acted somewhat rashly. He had no reason to equate Penny with rescue except his own biases on the issue, and he had no reason to assume that seeing Charlie dead was the only way for things to work out except for his own belief that Charlie was doomed, which he was supposed to come to realize was a lie (which he should have figured out based upon the reasoning that LC so brilliantly elucidates above). So, yes… Desmond has some things to learn from this experience and if he does, he might actually step into a stronger oracle role for the entire community.

And… thanks for the kind words. :-)

ProfO: I occurs to me that Des is in quite a quandry. Should he follow his own selfish ‘wants’ or does he do the honorable things for the good of the group. I think that you are right by assuming that his act to allow Charlie to die was the right thing to do, but interwoven IS the idea that contact would be made with Penny. So was this really a selfless act, I’m not completely sure that it was!!

No, it wasn’t completely selfless. Desmond was “blinded” by the Penny factor. I’m actually suggesting that allowing Charlie to die was not the right thing to do. But then again, I’m not really suggesting he allowed Charlie to die. I think Charlie effectively killed himself because he was convinced by Desmond that the sacrifice was required. I think Desmond, also, honestly assumed that it was. But he was mistaken, and that mistake cost Charlie his life.

I edited the original post some so that the nature of Desmond’s interpretation of his flashes is more clear. I hope. :-)

As always, such a beautiful post! I couldn’t agree more with your findings and I think Desmond will soon rise to the occasion and work more with his insights before determining the outcome of matters.

tharde: I feel the same way as you do about “the newbies” on this website. Thanks for having “the stones” to say it, though!!! BRAVO!!!

Thanks, dab!

Ah.. I see now and I think that he can use the flashes for advantage.. how big an advantage is debateable as I suspect others on the island might possibly experiencing similar phenomenon. Ben’s foresight is just uncanny and could be explained by just such a power. Maybe Ben’s selfish use of his power is what is holding him back as well.

dab: I knew they were for something! And it was my pleasure, I wish I could write a disclaimer, or perhaps a prerequisite for a the newbies to read 100 valid posts before entering, maybe it would catch them all up to speed.

thard: Good points about Ben. In my post, “Imagine Desmond…” I discuss how Desmond might become like Ben if his gifts are more fully developed.

I try very hard to put things in order like that….most of what you have proposed I believe is right on…some…filling in the gaps…..I do love to read you because you have the talent and patients (yikes - spelled wrong) to keep on track and give us a very good theory.

Thanks, holiday!

I don’t know if Desmond knows how he’s going to die, but I imagine he expects he might know before it happens. :-)

tharde: Your response gave me a much needed laugh. LOL

hmmm Kat, you just reminded me. In “Our Mutual Friend,” the main character, John Harmon, supposedly drowns at the very beginning—but it is another man’s body which is mistaken for his his that leads everyone to believe that Harmon is dead. I wonder if the drowning and substitution will somehow play out with Des/Charlie.

I believe you are absolutely right on most part… I kinda disagree that he saw terrible things if Charlie didn’t die. I believe the only thing he saw if Charlie died was him being reunited with Penny. And thats the only thing that matters to him now. The episode where Naomi arrives on the island, he had doubts about saving Charlie because he knew the person had something to do with Penny… He wasn’t sure if it was Penny or not who parachuted onto the island because her face was hidden by the helmet she was wearing. All he saw was the picture of him and Penny found on that person’s body, thats why he hesitated and left it to the last minute to save Charlie. But this time he actually saw him and Penny together again, but only if Charlie dies. The thought of him being reunited with the woman he loves plus the fact that he knew that Charlie couldn’t be saved no matter how many times he intervened persuaded him to lead Charlie to his death. He could have said nothing and let Sayid go in his place. The thing is, he’s been alone on that island for three years, it’s normal for someone who’s been without human contact for such a long period to act selfishly when he believes he will actually find what he has lost over that period.

I believe he’s a good person because sometimes he is tempted to do the wrong thing but in the end he can’t go through with it. After all, he did offer to take Charlies place at the last minute so that doesn’t make him a bad person. Does it?

I just think that whole scenario a) has been treated already with his other flashbacks and b) shows no growth in Desmond’s character (or fails to account for why his character didn’t grow after the last experience).

I guess what it comes down to is I’ll be disappointed if there isn’t something a bit more complex behind Desmond’s behavior and Charlie’s death, because so far it does sort of appear as though they just threw something together in order to write an actor out of the show.

“because so far it does sort of appear as though they just threw something together in order to write an actor out of the show.”

Sadly, I believe you are right :(

Desmond is my favorite character on the show (used to be a toss up between Jack and Locke .. but Jack became too much of a crybaby in his flashbacks and forward… Locke? Well he was too hopelessly in need of his fathers attention in his flashbacks). To think that Dez would use his ability to manipulate people for his own benefit would make me angry at the writers. Like Penny said when he asked her why she loved him.. her reply was. “Because your a good man. And in my experience, good men are hard to come by.” I wonder what her reaction would be if she were to find out that he might have purposely let someone die in order to be with her?

Good post!

I did think while I was watching the episode why we didn’t see Desmond’s flashes, as we usually always do.

It still seemed after Charlie locked himself in the room, Desmond attempted (a bit) to get him out. Although gave up because it’s impossible with a door like that.

Maybe he didn’t want Charlie to die if he could stop it? Or was the temporary ‘trying to free Charlie’ thing just an act for Charlie’s benefit to make him feel like Desmond doesn’t want him to die?

Just throwing the idea out there.

Here’s a thought… We know that before, when Desmond had a flash, it was of things that could happen if he just sat by and done nothing (the lightning, Clair drowning, etc…) These two last times, he had to get involved in someway so that his premonitions would actually come to pass. Ok. I admit sometimes I have trouble getting my point across, especially when it comes to time travel or premonitions because it becomes so confusing by times that even I have a hard job understanding myself (lol). What I mean is… If Desmond would have kept his mouth shut, wouldn’t it be Sayid’s idea to go down to the looking glass instead of Charlie? And wasn’t it Desmond’s idea to get Hurley, Jin and Charlie to go camping in the jungle? What would this imply? That Desmond is embracing the fact that he can do nothing to prevent what will happen or rather that he can in fact change things and mold the future so it can resemble what he sees in his flash? This is where it becomes confusing to me and also when I reach for my bottle of aspirins. (lol)

Right, kat. I think Desmond saw enough in flashes to realize now that Charlie did not have to die in the Looking Glass. I think Desmond believed there were two possibilities: Either Charlie doesn’t go to the Looking Glass and the beach is attacked (with Charlie still living); OR Charlie goes to the Looking Glass, dies, and Penny is contacted, which Desmond interpreted to mean everyone would be rescued rather than. But now he realizes that Charlie could have survived the Looking Glass, that the attack on the beach is coming because they were successful in the Looking Glass, and the only reason Charlie died was because he believed Desmond’s lie about the rescue.

*rather than attacked… sorry… :-)

:-)

Katrina and Profozone debatin’ in a tree …. d-e-s-m-o-n-d

I’m on to you two…. You can’t fool me… ;)

:-D

Prof,

Great post. A few thoughts are below…hope they are somewhat interesting and not rehashing boring old news.

“So, I conclude that, as a character, Desmond is supposed to learn how to let go of these notions of fate and inevitability and, rather, learn to live in the moment, making choices with confidence and courage and the certain knowledge that those choices make a difference. ”

A thought as a “newbie” poster. Your anaylsis fits right in with Desmond’s character (as drafted by writers) as, partly, a brilliant play on Humian philosophy.

As you likely already know, Hume is famous for, among other things, his challenge to philosopher’s reliance on cause and effect. His primary challenge being that all persons, great thinkers included, often ascribe “cause” to an action merely because it occurs prior to an “effect” (i.e. dropping a glass CAUSES it to break). Thus, he posits, were we to see things in reverse (a broken glass rising off the floor into a hand), we would characterize the effect as the cause and the cause as the effect (floor and rising causes glass to assemble). Thus, cause and effect are ascribed merely because of the manner in which we perceive events and not because of some natural connection/relationship between them.

How does this relate to Desmond and your statement above?

Desmond is a unique observer, able to observe (possible) future events. As a man who believes in fate — and cause & effect — he ascribes events/actions that he sees in his visions as the CAUSE of later events that he also sees, even to the point of it being absurd (Charlie being shot with an arrow means he finds Penny alive after “she” parachutes). Desmond is caught up in this concept of cause and effect that dangerously leads him to misunderstand his visions.

As it seems, Desmond’s understanding of his visions can potentially have a dramatic effect on the fate of the Losties. However, for this effect to be positive, it is essential that he come to understand, in a deeper sense, what his visions are — Possible future events that must be understood through their actual relationships (put your thinking cap on Desmond — how can you understand these disparate and jumbled visions) rather than some simple cause and effect model ( I see Charlie alive and bad things happen, therefore Charlie alive causes bad things)

As part of his character’s development, Desmond must therefore come to understand his visions in a dramatic new way (as you said above, reject fate but also, reject his current understandings of cause and effect). Only through doing so will he be able to harness the power of his visions to the betterment of himself and the Losties.

If you are right, Desmond will now learn that his belief that Charlie being alive causes an incident on the beach was wrong. Rather, Charlie being in the Looking Glass will cause this event and the only thing that sealed Charlie’s “fate” was Desmond’s inability to recognize this.

Brilliant observations, Igs. Though I’m familiar with Hume and did notice that Desmond appears to be named for him, I’d been completely ignoring all of that in considering the evolution of Desmond’s character. But that’s OK, because you said it all better than I could ever even have dreamed to! :-)

Greats connections Igs, the two ways of thinking that you are saying Desmond needs to get beyond are linear cause-effect (regardless of direction) and binary division: Charlie alive=bad general outcome; Charlie dead=good general outcome. It strikes me that these are two hallmarks of Western thinking generally so I wonder how that might connect to the emphasis on Eastern thought in things like “Dharma,” “ying/yang” etc.

*yin…my fingers always want to add that g after any “in”

Right, jaz. As I’ve mentioned before, I think the show in general is trying to challenge Western notions of right and wrong, good and evil, self and other… and even past and future.

“I see Charlie alive and bad things happen, therefore Charlie alive causes bad things”

“If you are right, Desmond will now learn that his belief that Charlie being alive causes an incident on the beach was wrong. Rather, Charlie being in the Looking Glass will cause this event and the only thing that sealed Charlie’s “fate” was Desmond’s inability to recognize this.”

I apologize in advanced if I put a krink in your theories but isn’t this jumping to conclusions on behalf of Desmond’s vision? We did not see his vision so all this bad stuff on the beech is only speculation. As for me , I think what he saw was a flashing yellow light followed by Charlie pushing buttons then he saw him drown… If he saw all of this then it is safe to assume that he also saw the moments between Charlie pushing the button and his death. If this is the case then he surely saw the transmission from Penny to Charlie. Desmond is acting on the impulse that he may be reunited with Penny… If Charlie wasn’t in the hatch at that moment then the message would have gone unheard. So unfortunately, in his mind, he thought Charlie had to be there to receive Penny’s message witch unfortunately lead him to his death. that’s why i think there were no visions of the beach whatsoever, and that includes Clair and Aaron being saved.

I had another thought regarding something entirely different. Every vision that Desmond has are of events that he witnesses in the future therefore he is present at the moment that it will happen. He saw the lightening hit Charlie… He saw Charlie drown… he was there when the arrow hit Charlie… If this is true it is safe to assume that these are visions of HIS future seen through HIS eyes. If this is the case, then he must have known that he would be in the looking glass with Charlie when he died in order to see it happen. If so.. Maybe he thought he could still save him… so why was he at the other end of the looking glass instead of next to Charlie?

P.S. I don’t think I’ve ever seen as many comments in a single post (lol)

Well, NowImLost, I realize I’m completely guessing as to what Desmond saw or didn’t see, but the point I’ve been trying to make is that I’m basing that guess on where I think the character might be going. If Desmond was motivated only by his desire to talk to Penny, see her again, or whatever, then in my view his character would be taking a step backwards, and frankly it would then appear as though most of the interaction between Desmond and Charlie in the last episode was just to write a character out of the show and not really to advance the story. This is a disappointing proposition at best. We know that Desmond has had visions where Charlie was both alive AND dead. It makes sense to me that he might have had just this kind of experience again and he took liberties with the interpretation according to his own biases, thus leading to Charlie, essentially, taking his own life rather than escaping the communications room, which he very obviously could have done had he wanted to.

Perhaps (and this may be wishful thinking on my part) Desmond will realize that his visions (of Charlie drowning in the looking glass as well as appearing on the beach) were not two alternate realities, but two realities that will happen in quick succession? So, once he realizes this, he does something to save Charlie, then Charlie fights on the beach as Desmond envisioned? Just a thought. Don’t really want to see Charlie gone so that’s probably why I’m grasping at this one. :-) Great theories all - very interesting reads….

I don’t agree that Desmond made a mistake in his vision that Clarie and Aaron get ‘rescued’. I believe that he did see them getting on the helicopter in his vision. Des assumed that they were getting rescued … which was a reasonable assumption. My theory is that either Des gets to where the survivors are before the helicopter arrives and prevents Claire and Aaron from getting on the helicopter (now that he knows that Naomi isn’t connected to Penny) OR perhaps Des’s vision of Claire and Aaron getting on the helicopter is a foreshadowing of them getting rescued at the end of the show. Charlie flipping the switch would have something to do with C&A’s rescue at the end of the series.

Keep in mind that it was Charlie’s fate to type in the code which turned off the yellow light.

In the episode “Greatest Hits”, Charlie makes a list of his own greatest hits. He listed out the greatest things he did which made him a different person, a changed person.

The greatest hits were:

When his brother gave him the DS ring. By giving Charlie the ring, his brother had elevated Charlie to the Responsible Brother … the one that would make something of himself.

When Charlie made the leap into the pool. He was distrustful of his father but he pushed past the fear — again, making a change in himself.

When he saved the girl in the alley from being robbed. He became a hero that day — at least to the girl.

When he and the rest of the band heard their song on the radio. At that point, they became rock stars.

And the last and most important was when he met Claire. She helped him to change himself by giving up drugs.

He had fulfilled his fate … turning off the yellow light was his purpose. It had to be Charlie that turned off the light because as a musician he would have known what keys to hit to make the Good Vibrations tune.

All those times that Desmond saved Charlie were for a purpose. He saved Charlie all those times so that he could type in that code and talk with Penny.

More info in my next post.

This makes me think back to the names of the Hatches (i.e. a swan is something that starts out as an ugly ducking but changes into something beautiful and graceful; a pearl is something that starts out as a grain of sand and turns into something valuable, a looking glass is something that, when passed through, brings about a change according to Alice in Wonderland). I believe the purpose of the island is to help its inhabitants realize their purpose and help them to bring about that purpose.

As Charlie was drowning he was not struggling or trying to save himself. He did it with his eyes wide open (literally and figuratively).

Just one observation. In the ‘Greatest Hits’ episode, when Charlie’s brother came into the room where Charlie and the two girls were sleeping, notice his brother’s tee shirt. The picture on the tee shirt looks an awful lot like the island which was shown on the map Ben was looking at to find the radio tower. I know this sounds crazy, but it’s true.

Well, certainly I agree with all of your points in principle, mam. Obviously Charlie was meant to shut off the jamming device. But… he didn’t have to die. I think he thought he had to die based of what Desmond told him. But I think Desmond was mistaken. And I think this because I believe it’s consistent with where Desmond’s character was being taken before Charlie’s death. Any other way I try to interpret the events surrounding Charlie’s death… well, the meaning of his sacrifice comes out rather flat. Even the scene is awkward, with Charlie not even trying to escape when it’s clear he could have.

Prof I like your posts and also want to compliment you on how well thought out you theories are. One this one though I disagree. To start with if you watch the scene where Charlie makes contact with Penny, he calls for Desmond as soon as he realizes it’s Penny. Almost immediately he starts to lose the transmission feed and yells out her name. Then Mikhail taps on the window and makes his intention to blow up the station clear. As Charlie looks over at the door he sees Desmond running to towards him yelling out “Penny!” That’s why Charlie locked him out - to prevent Desmond from entering the room when he clearly wouldn’t leave even after the grenade went off.

I’m pretty certain that Desmond is still confused about his visions and what they really mean. As you stated he saw Charlie get shot with the arrow and at the same time saw him helping to rescue Naomi. Clearly they couldn’t both have been predestined as absolutes.

If Desmond really thought Charlie was the reason they could make contact with Penny, Desmond would have stuck to Charlie like a Siamese twin. He has been regretting his mistake for years - had he really known that someone would make contact with her he would have been right next to Charlie and in the radio room instead of putting the scuba tanks together to leave the station. But his entire demeanor at that point was calm, not nervous and certainly not excited. Why would that be?

The only reason is because he doesn’t know what to make of the flashes yet. Certainly he saw something, whether the viewers were allowed to see it or not. Desmond described everything perfectly - a station under water, a flashing yellow light, a switch under the light that needed to be turned off. These weren’t just idle thoughts that popped into his head. He knew the details and he had them right. He also said that after Charlie turned off the jammer he would drown. but if he saw the light, the switch etc then he had to know that the station wasn’t flooded when Charlie shut it down. Seeing scuba tanks before Charlie entered the room you would think he’d suggest keeping them close before shutting down the jammer. If he thought the station would flood - even if he came to terms with letting Charlie die, wouldn’t he be nervous for himself? Who could stand in a station under water knowing it was about to flood and not be a little scared? Yet, he was perfectly calm. My guess is that Desmond doesn’t understand what he sees yet - not enough to trust the visions yet. If he did he would have been much more concerned about what was about to happen. I don’t think he expected Charlie to die until he saw the door close. Even Charlie seemed to let it go until he had to choose to sacrifice himself or allow Desmond to die.

But in the end I guess none of us will know until next year! Until then though I’ll enjoy talking about every possible possibility with you folks! Keep up the good work - we have a long time to wait for Lost to return!!

Excellent points, Jukin. And thanks for the kind words!

I guess, though, my answer to your thoughts is that I, too, don’t think Desmond really understands his visions. I agree with you, I think for a moment there he actually thought everything might work out just fine without Charlie having to die. The bottom line is that I don’t know how Desmond knew Charlie was a key to contacting Penny. I don’t know what flash or feeling he had. But you’re right, it must not have been something as simple as him seeing Charlie push a button and bring her up on a screen or he probably would have stayed right at Charlie’s side. Of course, keep in mind that I’m theorizing that the important thing to Desmond in this whole scenario isn’t, in fact, for HIM to talk to Penny, but for Charlie to. Perhaps he just didn’t see himself talking to her and accepted that such a thing wasn’t going to happen (or perhaps he even accepted it shouldn’t happen).

I guess I could go on and on over your same points, but the overall point is the same. You and I are actually on the same page here. I also think there are a lot of gaps in Desmond’s understanding of what he sees. But I’m also suggesting that in this instance he stepped out and filled in some blanks and acted based upon that. And, like a classic oracle, this included telling Charlie things that weren’t perfectly true.

Now, I do like you pointing out that Charlie shut the door the way he did in order to “save” Desmond, certain Desmond would not allow the door to be closed in time. That is an interesting idea. But it still isn’t enough for me to think that Charlie didn’t sacrifice himself for nothing.

But as you say… we won’t really know until next season! :-)

Excellent. A real gripping point of view. I never really thought about the two visions that Desmond saw, it does highlight the possibility that maybe Charlie’s life wasn’t forfeit. Maybe these visions that Desmond sees are just two ways the future can happen if he changes one step i.e. saving Charlie from the arrow-to-neck death. Another thing, ProfOZone you’ve been able to leave a comment amongst reviews of your theory. How did you do that I can’t seem to find a way to leave a reply on my reviews?

jate: thanks for the kind words! I’m not sure why you’re having trouble leaving a reply on your reviews because I just have that option automatically. Although there have been times when I’ve been looking at my own posts and I seem to have been logged out of the system (when that happens the option to leave a comment disappears, not just from your post but from any post you try to look at) so perhaps you just need to log yourself back in and try again. Sometimes the system will log you out because of how you arrived at the post. For example, did you go to your post by cycling through theories or did you navigate to your post via your profile? Try different ways of navigating to your post to see which one is causing you to log out before you get there.

I hope that helps. :-(

And, by the way, welcome to L-T. Many of us have been enjoying your posts. :-)

Yeah that would explain why we dont actually see his flashes

I like the way you write, ProfOzone, but I think you are looking waaay too deep into Desmond’s role. I really believe the last 2 eps of season 3 were a tribute to Charlie and how his fulfilling Des’ flash led to his redemption. I’m thinking that the producers & writers had been planning on killing Charlie all along but his death would not be without serving a purpose – helping Claire & Aaron, his two loves and the driving force behind his attempt to redeem himself, to get off the island. I maintain that Des’ role in the universe (his current path) was to keep Charlie alive until Charlie’s path was complete, which was to turn off the jamming signal to allow for Claire & Aaron’s rescue. Just like when Ms. Hawking (the antique store lady) told Des about his future path (not buy the ring, break Penny’s heart, end up on an island, and push the button that saves the world before turning the key), Des bought the ring anyway but still ended up at the end of his path – turning the key. Did Des knowingly perform these tasks based on what Ms. Hawking had told him? Probably not - they were just events that were going to take place no matter what Des purposely did. Did Des telling Charlie about Charlie’s future determine what events were going to occur? I propose that if Ms. Hawking would have told Charlie his prophecy, she would have said that he’d go to an island and shut off the jamming signal. As for Des causing Charlie’s death, that was the universe’s doing, not Des.

Also, I think the purpose of Ms. Hawking showing Des the death of the man in the red shoes was to emphasize that the man’s death could be delayed but would eventually occur. The example was to assist Des in understanding his flashes and help Charlie to get to his path’s end. It also allowed the viewer to sit on the edge of their collective seat awaiting Charlie’s eventual outcome. Truly remarkable storytelling.

sjan: You may be right. Personally, I hope you’re not. :-) As much as Lost seems to want to challenge our comfortable dualities (us/them, self/other, determinism/destiny, good/evil… even past/future) it would seem odd to me if Ms. Hawking was right. Essentially, the show would be picking a side when it seems obvious to me that the show is all about how one ought not pick a side.

But none of that changes the simple fact that you could very well be correct. I guess we’ll see. :-)

I think it’s more about redemption than picking a side. In watching the episode Greatest Hits, it’s obvious that the focus was to set Charlie up for his redeeming act (and tugging at our heart strings). I’m sure you and your minion will be overly disappointed if, in season 4, we learn that Des has lost his power to see flashes due to his latest concussion. But that would make sense to me in that the purpose of the flashes has been fulfilled. The clue - has Des had flashes regarding any other character or event not related to Charlie dying?

sjan: Seriously… do I have minions?? That would be so cool…

I get what you’re saying, and you make a good point. But aside from kat’s points I’d point out that your ideas address Charlie’s redemption, but what about Desmond’s? If the flashes were really all about helping Charlie, well is Desmond just a tool in the whole thing? What about his journey? I don’t see how Desmond keeping the flashes and growing in understanding them takes away from the redemptive aspect of Charlie’s journey. I suppose one could think if Charlie’s death didn’t actually lead inextricably to the rescue of Claire and Aaron then Charlie’s journey was a waste. But I don’t see it that way at all. I think it counts for something that Charlie believed in what he sacrificed himself for. And it would be interesting to me to see Desmond try to make it right.

By the way, sjan, kat has a very good post on the subject of Desmond’s journey, in case you’re interested:

http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2007/jul/02/desmond-archetypal-hero/

katrina - actually, it was ep 303 Further Instructions where, right after the implosion, Hurley finds Des naked and tells Hurley not to worry about Jack, Kate & Sawyer because Locke says in his speech that he would go after them. However, right before Locke’s speech, Charlie was with Locke looking for Mr. Eko and they encountered the polar bear, which Locke fights off. Since we didn’t see Des’ flash, I would suggest he “saw” the polar bear event (in which Charlie’s life was in danger) as well as the speech, all of which included Charlie. Also, I’ve listened to the pod casts with the producers on the Lost ABC website and don’t see where Ms. Hawking is mentioned for future eps. If you have read that somewhere, can you point me in that direction?

ProfOzone - I would say +17 on 21 votes would suggest you have a nice following, at least for this thread; but don’t let it go to your head. ;)

Regarding Des’ journey, I’m not saying his purpose on the show has been completed. Charlie was a central character and needed conclusion, to which Des’ storyline assisted. Des has many aspects (his relationships with Widmore Industries, Penny and Libby, and that he wasn’t on the plane) other than his ability to see future flashes that I believe will be more integral to finding answers. You believe there are more to his flashes, which I appreciate but don’t agree with so far. Either way, it’s food for thought.

Yeah, sjan, I am also. I like the way you think and you debate sensibly, yet forcefully. That’s awesome.

Oh… and they’re not really minions unless I can send them places to do my evil bidding. So… nah, I doubt I’ll let it go to my head. :-)

ProfOzone, thanks for the complement. And by minion, I meant more like follower who pleases or flatters, not with the sinister connotation. Most of the above comments not only agree with you but also complement you on your explanation.

kat, I thought we agreed we wouldn’t discuss that in public… ahem…

sjan, I think I got your meaning. :-) As you’ve no doubt noticed many of us have become friends here and we’re very enthusiastic about each other’s company. I’m guessing if you continue to honor us with your insights you’ll be receiving our appreciation of you very often as well.

Well, some have suggested Desmond’s first flashes were after he fell, then he stopped having flashes after being popped in the head at the bar (which would explain a Desmond who doesn’t act like he’s having flashes or like he remembers much) so perhaps another pop in the head will make him lose the gift again. I rather hope not, though.

Dear debaters,

First of all, I’m one of those horrible creatures known as “newbies”. The fact I’m a non-English speaker is just an aggravating circumstance to my case. Anyway, hi everyone! To the point.

It seems to me we are all putting great stock in Desmond’s “abilities”. Why is it so? Several characters have had “flashes” before him - although sometimes with “chemical assistance”. Locke saw Boone dead and the drug dealer’s airplane falling, for instance. Eko saw Anna Lucia dead (seems there is a pattern: flashes always have to do with someone dead or dying…) telling him about the Pearl Station.

In my opinion, those flashes are “inducted”. Who by and how, I have no idea. But Locke and Eko’s flashes “guided” the Losties to discover the Pearl, and Desmond’s flashes took them to the Looking Glass, so I think someone - or something, meaning the Island - is helping, even compelling the Losties to unravel the Island’s mysteries.

Ok, I’m probably not making sense but, anyone else thinks every single character in the show is but a puppet? Because sometimes I do…

Great site, by the way. See you soon.

Occam, great points, and your English is excellent! I think you are onto something in linking the fact that the visions are about death and lead to stations. Another similar theory that fits very well with what you are saying is: http://lost-theories.com/theories/2007/jul/19/mind-manipulation-aka-whispers/

I, too, think you make an excellent point, Occam. I suppose one reason some of us focus a bit on Desmond is because so much seems to relate directly to him in the narrative and because so far he’s the only one we’ve seen actually interacting with his “handler” with the knowledge that she was, actually, his “handler” (the lady in the jewelry store, Ms. Hawking). Of course, we don’t really know who Ms. Hawking is or even if she was working for anyone, and if she was working for someone we don’t know who, precisely, that was. But, in general, it just seems to me that the story points to Desmond as having some extra measure of significance when compared to everyone else. But hey, we could all be wrong! (I hope you have your famous razor handy!)

Exceptional English, by the way. A few of us native speakers could take some lessons from you!

hmmm, just going back to Prof’s original post way up there (and also, Occam want to recomment kat’s post on Desmond as the archtypal hero: http://lost-theories.com/theories/2007/jul/02/desmond-archetypal-hero/), I’m thinking about the similarities/differences. Maybe the similarities point to similar forces behind the manipulation, but the differences, Des’s extra measure of signficance and the fact that his visions come in flashed—point to Des having more power to interfere with or control the manipulations. And that Charlie’s death and the realization of his error is another step in the process of putting him more in control.

Well, if that was not a warmer welcome than the one I expected…

Read the whispers one by tharde5. Curiously enough, I was going to suggest something along that line, but I was thinking more of Kate, Sawyer and Jack. All three of them were captive in the Hydra, and we know for sure at least Sawyer was subject to surgery. We also know Claire has an implant of some sort, that can be remotely operated by Ben’s team. I was thinking about the alleged flash-forward being “planted” on Jack -or Kate, or both- through an implant.

As soon as I read katrina’s one on Desmond, I will be back with more comments.

Thanks for your kind words, guys.

ooooo, interesting idea about the flash-forward

Just read katrina’s on Desmond. WOW. Just WOW. Left me speechless…

Heh… yeah, kat often has that effect on people… :-)

Not a good effect, though, given this is suppossed to be a discussion forum. Too many speechless people around here and this site will die… ;-)

Anyway, I promise I will read it again and try and comment.

Back again. I’ve been re-reading your comments, and I wanted to reply to katrina’s 75th. Just so she doesn’t feel discouraged ;-)

katrina says: “I think Des’s flashes serve a greater purpose than the island playing tricks on people via visions or hallucinations. (no one else was told anything about the “course-correcting” business by some oracle lady).”

Absolutely. But then again maybe Des was the one who needed that information, because he was the only one who tried to change the sequence of events -something I’m still not sure he would be able to do, really… I still think what happens stays “happened”. Even if what Mr Hawking said wasn’t true, she had to play that card on Desmond so he believed that, no matter his choices, in the end everything would be the same. Still, he bought the ring, but… would he have broken with Penny if he didn’t believe his choices were in vain?

Neo and the Oracle… seems to me I have to watch that movie once more. Yep, something along those lines. Except that in Desmond’s case, Hawkings is trying him not to wander from a previous script.

Anyway, I seem to find flaws on Ms Hawking reasoning. Or a flaw, at least. I mean, she keeps pressing on the idea of a “course-correcting” universe. Well, assuming she is right… no matter Desmond married Penny or ditched her, he would end up pressing the button, right? So what’s the hurry?

I keep thinking on “self-accomplished predictions”, if you take my meaning. In my opinion, Hawkings knew Desmond’s choices mattered, so she had to press. And, somehow, Desmond seems to have grasped that notion, because he keeps insisting on repeat step by step what he sees in his “flashes”, not wanting to risk a different outcome of them than the one he desires.

Another one I read but forgot to vote on. +1

Thanks, dude! :-)

This is amazing and makes perfect sense. but now i am even sadder that Charlie died!! i burst into tears when i read that charlie’s death was pointless. and Des realized it…aw, he could’ve written on his hand telling poor Charlie…but charlie wouldnt believe him…oh this is so sad.

Agreed, Ben.

Charlie “Hieronymus” Pace - Anagram = “Hume’s Irony”

I absolutely agree with this theory!

This is a fantastic theory, we were not shown any of Desmonds last flash session, clearly because it was not as he described. As further proof that it’s true, co-creater DL recently stated that in season 4 Desmond will be torn apart with guilt about the descisions he made in the finale! A huge +1 from me. looking foward 2 more of your theories.

Thanks for the votes of confidence, folks! :-) Most of my theories have been summed up in two “integrated” theories you’ll find in my profile (they’re among the highest rated in my profile and they have the word “integrated” in the titles). Now, I’m not saying that none of the rest of my theories have anything else to say, but if you’re not interested in trudging through all 130+ of them, the two “integrated” theories should cover just about everything. :-) I’m interested in your thoughts (positive or negative) on those theories as well.

Desmond didn’t lie to Charlie. He said he saw Aaron and Claire getting into a helicopter and everyone being rescued, but I’m sure there is more to this vision. We know they eventually get off the island, so they are rescued. Desmond doesn’t necessarily see the future, he sees the events that will happen because he has lived them before in a past time loop, and he doesn’t quite understand his visions yet. Desmond could of saw a flash of Claire and Aaron getting into the copter, but maybe not necessarily being rescued, and everyone is later rescued which cuold have been another flash.

Desmond didn’t lie to Charlie. He said he saw Aaron and Claire getting into a helicopter and everyone being rescued, but I’m sure there is more to this vision. We know they eventually get off the island, so they are rescued. Desmond doesn’t necessarily see the future, he sees the events that will happen because he has lived them before in a past time loop, and he doesn’t quite understand his visions yet. Desmond could of saw a flash of Claire and Aaron getting into the copter, but maybe not necessarily being rescued, and everyone is later rescued which cuold have been another flash.

Well, all of that is kind of my point, kap. I realize I’m filling in a lot of blanks to put forth my theory, but the meat of the issue is that Desmond didn’t see everything and he filled in some gaps of his own… and the way he interpreted it led to him taking a course of action that he now realizes he didn’t have to take. I mean… part of my theory does include particular guesses on my part as to what was seen and not seen, but none of that is the main point of the theory. The main point is that Desmond took liberties in deciding what the visions meant and I think he was wrong… wrong in a way that led to Charlie’s unnecessary death.

i have no life, outside of the internet. same goes for all of you

Woo 100 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it could be that the lady told desmond people would always die no matter what because she was a psychic and knew he had to think that…back in time. aye.

Dude you got a good theorie here.

great theory. one point, though i am not sure if it is true or not, i wil have to check. like you said, des saw charlie dying AND cutting the parachute down. but did he see two different outcomes to the ‘looking glass’ flash or are you presuming he did?

I think that charlie is alive

I’m just presuming Desmond saw two outcomes, theriddick. We didn’t see his Looking Glass flashes so we don’t know. And I’m not saying I’ve got all the details straight here… mostly I’m suggesting that Desmond saw two outcomes and misinterpreted how they should be resolved, thus unintentionally leading to Charlie’s self-sacrifice.

i love this post, i was just wondering what could be going on with Desmond ‘saving’ claire by letting charlie die because as Kate has Aaron, Claire clearly never gets saved, i like this theory a lot +1