LOST-Theories.com

Dear ProfOzone,

I read it first! Excellent! +1 for me…

Dear ProfOzone,

Just read it again, and I must say: If most or all of it were true, Ben would surely be the greatest “villain” on tv. Question is, will he ultimately win the game?

you just made Lost make sense!

I can’t help but keep thinking about the song “one tin soldier” over this battle for the island.

Ben’s leadership has been waning, but it will be enhanced by his apparent commitment to saving everyone and by the conflict that will soon ensue… and by whatever brilliant stroke will allow him to be victorious (since I imagine he must have an ace up his sleeve). Ben has everyone right where he wants them. Although… I wouldn’t discount Ms. Hawking somewhere with an ace of her own.

Fantastic.Ben is the master manipulator. I agree with Kat that Ben is setting them up. So is this all for the greater good?

All of the factions think their motives are “for the greater good”.

I do think Juliet is still taking orders from Ben. But I wouldn’t bet that it’ll stay that way. Or that it won’t. :-)

I do think Des is a wildcard for Ben AND Jacob. But Ben seems to cope with it alright so far. We’ll see if that lasts.

Dear everyone,

I’m not sure if Juliet is still taking orders from Ben, but I’m certain he counted on her to switch sides when he placed her with Jack.

Intentionally or unintentionally, Juliet is Ben’s “piece”.

And I agree that Des is the wildcard. HE seems to be the one that will determine the winner of this game…

Yes, good points, yktn.

I don’t think Ben knows just what Desmond is about. Although I do think Ben knew about Desmond and counted on him activating the failsafe. So… you know… not sure where Ben’s knowledge of Desmond lies in a general sense.

Great theory Prof!

Ben MUST have at least some level of knowledge of what Desmond is about because he must have been observing him closely for some time via the Pearl Station. The guy was down there ALONE with no more than 108 minutes of consecutive sleep for God knows how long. That would probably mess with your internal monologue and cause you to think out loud after a while - and a man will confess his deepest feelings out loud when he thinks he is alone, especially if he is sleep deprived. That would be alot of juicy psychological material for Ben to exploit.

Dear Hexagon01,

Desmond was ALONE in the hatch for 44 days; before Sept 22 2004, he had Kelvin for company. On Nov 4 2004, the hatch was opened…

Heh… good points all around…

+1 from me, really good theory.

Kat, I’m not sure I agree that Juliett is Ben’s piece, I think she is Jack’s piece, pun intended, b/c for most of season 3 we are lead to believe that Jack is falling for her, then as soon as she and Sawyer go off to save Jin, Bernard, and Sayid he tells Kate he loves her.

Dear Lockeko,

This is my take on Lost’s “love quadrangle”:

Jack likes Kate, but Kate now likes Sawyer, as she thinks Jack likes Juliet. However, it’s Juliet who likes Jack…

yep, but Jack told Kate he loved her, and that he knew Sawyer loved her too. Jack doesn’t seem like a guy who would just say that to get in her pants. I think he was being genuine with Kate, but I think he is letting Juliette believe he is as in to he as she is to him. I think Jack suspects that Juliette is still working for Ben, and allowing himself to be part of the game to see where it is going.

Dear lockeko,

Jack using Juliet as a double agent? Sneaky… I like it!

ben could be a manipulator but he s not god..its a good theory but i hope its not true as it is harsh to explain everythin being previously planned…how could ben ensure that everything wuold go his way…even the most infimous detail could have spoiled his plan somehow along the way…then maybe blame it all on luck…i really dont think ben is that self-aware..not all is planned..im sure ben didnt really want jack to contact the boat, and he did eventually… other question…how can some kid recruited amidst them, could years later turn out to be everyone ´s boss, including the only one who could see jacob…?..that seems odd to me.. is that what they are looking for by kidnapping the children???

osorio… imagine that Ben has a gift (or at least access to someone who has a gift) much like Desmond’s, except more developed. A person like that could do a lot of amazing things.

But I’m not just making this up. I mean… the show itself suggested that some things were done to Claire and Jack with the aim of getting Juliet on the beach much later. And that John’s rampage was precisely what Ben wanted to happen. All of that together makes a very long and elaborate plan that, you’re right, would have required some extraordinary intelligence to pull off. But I think that’s kind of the point.

Frankly, I’d be very disappointed if it turns out Ben was so easily duped by Richard and John in the end. That would, to me, seem inconsistent with the kind of abilities the show has claimed Ben has.

I don’t care how ben is duped as long as he gets it in back just like naomi

a knife that is

I tend to think Ben’s end in the show will be a little like Prince Humperdink’s. :-)

Hmm… interesting, kat…

Kinda joking, yeah. :-)

Fantastic, really fantastic…

I’ve gpt a general question about the factions and particular questions about the moves:

In talking about the dark side of faith and of science, you’ve taken two of the show’s oppositions and put them together to make four. Also—I’m taking here science to generally be equated with the “make the island visible faction” and faith with the “keep the island invisible faction.” Then you have light/dark science, and light/dark faith? And I think who represents those categories is not absolutely fixed, yes?

And a particular follow-up to that question about Sayid’s role. You mentioned what he said about hope in the context of the others keeping the losties in the dark—that is knowledge=power, and lack of knowledge=loss of hope. But I thought that what Sayid said was that it’s important to keep people in the dark to some degree in order for them to maintain hope. I think Sayid is a really interesting split between science and faith in that way (and others—like his desire to acknoledge the faiths of everyone who died in the crash). Yes, it’s important to find the truth—but on the other hand the truth might not set them free but send them into despair.

Ben’s cancer as sign—is it also a move by Jacob?

Des in relation to Ben—turning the failsafe is part of Ms. Hawking’s agenda; is it also Ben’s agenda at that point or did he just want Locke to do his thing and Des turning the key is a countermove by Hawking et al.? It seems like Des/Charlie and the Looking-Glass seems to be a move that both PTB and Ben want but for different reasons—or Ben wants the PTB to believe they’ve gotten what they want, but he’s planned on that move (chess) and has a strategy set up based on it. I guess that’s why chess is the game—because you manipulate your oppoenent into making a move, but you are counting on them doing it. So it’s difficult to say that a particular move was intended just by player A and against player B. Both players will want the same move to be made but for different reasons.

Why shoot John if the purpose is not to kill him—is it in order for Jacob to give him the vision thus motivating John to kill Naomi?

Prince Humperdink? Well it would be good if the room he gets left in is Room 23. Ben seems kind of Vizzini-like to me, but I guess Vizzini does get defeated too easily.

I love Inigo Montoya! He’s kind of Sayid like now I come to think of it.

Jaz,

While I eventually end up with four factions, you’re correct in pointing out that a “science/faith — light/dark” matrix doesn’t really apply. I think the Dharma vs. Hostiles conflict represents an extreme “science vs. faith” conflict, and these are essentially the “light-and-dark” of the chessboard. Thinking about it now, I probably shouldn’t have used the “dark side of X” convention in my theory because I really wasn’t referring to the theme of “light vs. dark” in the show when I said that.

As for what Sayid said, I was referring to his point on the importance of hope, whether or not it comes from knowledge or ignorance. In fact, hope was so important that, to Sayid’s thinking, lying could be justified to keep it alive. So, my point was, if hope is truly that important, it’s definitely something the Others would want to manipulate.

I’ve never been confident in the notion that Jacob caused Ben’s tumor or even simply allowed Ben to have a tumor, so I didn’t include that notion in the theory. It’s possible, though, that the tumor was a move on Jacob’s part.

In my understanding, to destroy the Swan Station while leaving the island intact requires for said destruction to come by way of the failsafe mechanism. Thus, as soon as Ben decided the Swan had to go, it was about the failsafe. The big question here is, did the forces who want to protect the island not want the failsafe to be activated? I think this is a fair question, but I tend to think that the forces who wanted to keep the island hidden wanted the communications failures that destruction of the Swan Station would provide, and perhaps they didn’t take into account the notion that the EM anomaly might be detected.

Ben makes many moves that can go “both ways”. For example, when Ben set up the fake shooting of Bernard, Sayid, and Jin, that situation could logically have resulted in Jack giving Ben the phone in order to spare the lives of the three men. But, failing that, the fake killing would certainly motivate Jack to do with the phone just what Ben would have managed to somehow do with it anyway. I think shooting John was a similar thing. John might have died in that pit, and I think Ben could have rolled with that. Or… Jacob might make a move that would ultimately help Ben (which is what happened). I think that’s why Ben left John in the pit alive. Let’s face it, that’s the more pressing question, isn’t it? Not “why shoot John if the purpose is not to kill him” but “if his purpose was to kill him, why did he leave him alive?” In fact, Ben of all people should know better than to leave a person like John merely wounded in that place.

In chess, some moves are made in order to force your opponent to give their strategy away. I think Ben does this kind of thing all the time.

ahhh—didn’t realize the colors referred to the chessboard. But in talking about manifest destiny and ritual killing I thought you were using dark in that ethical way. And I like that actually—although the four factions are not the same as light science, dark science, light faith, dark faith—I think one could use those as adjectives to apply to the factions at various points—though one faction does not remain fixed in that description.

Thanks for the follow-up—I think the implosion and Ben’s shooting of Locke are both complicated in a good way and clear (or clearer, for me anyway).

Wow, Prof! Stellar theory!

I love the way you have brought together the story line and put it all into a strategic format. When viewed this way, it makes sense out of the occurrences and motivations in a clear fashion. I particularly like the analogy you use, to reason why and how Ben is diverting the issue of the failed pregnancies. I, too, believe Juliette is still under Ben’s clutches!

I know you must have some speculations as to the next move, and I would love to hear about them from you, not necessarily in this thread, but perhaps in another theory.

I will say it again, Prof, nobody does it better than you! Truly enjoyed it!

You’re too kind, dab. :-)

jaz… well, I was using the term “dark” in an ethical way, but since I don’t perceive the show to be using the term “dark” in that manner, my use of the term at that point wasn’t intended to allude to the used of the term in the show. If… that makes… ANY sense at all…

But… none of this really changes your overall point… which I agree with, by the way.

When is Desmond going to meet Ben? That is the meeting of the minds.

im just saying…how could ben know juliet and kate woudnt be attacked by the smoke monster and died?..how would he know juliet wouldnt be killed by one of the losties for revenge…? how would he know jack would not beat him to death in the last episode?

well he could have his flashes, but as we saw with desmond, they are not 100% certain of happening exactly as he saw them

the only thing i can imagine is that ben knows the future clearly and everything that will happen, or maybe he ´s trying to change something.. so much for free will then like juliet said early in season 3. but wouldnt him knowing the future immediately change it…??

if ben is so aware..how come he didnt know about desmond´s boat? he was shocked when colleen told him, and he immediately requested for them to steal it. if he already knew he´d done that before, even if he was hiding it from the rest, he would have done something to get the boat, like send mikhail… and if ben didnt know about the boat, he surely didnt know desmond came in it, ..so did he know about him being in the hatch?? well he spent there 3 years and they could spy on him as we saw ben and juliet spying jack on The Pearl. how can ben be so aware of past future or whatever then?

Well, first of all, Ben proved as Henry Gale how good he is at “staying in character” even when nobody else but the audience is watching. I’m not sure we can trust any expression of shock or surprise he shows. But even so, I’m not suggesting Ben knows everything. Just that he knows enough. And where there are gaps in his knowledge he has contingencies. He didn’t know if he’d survive his trip to the Swan but you saw how well he played that scenario out.

As for the attack of the smoke monster on Juliet and Kate… that could have been a setup also. But even if it wasn’t, again, I’m not saying Ben has to know every detail. In fact, I’m don’t even think one needs to assume Ben has some kind of special, paranormal knowledge. Chess isn’t about knowing everything that’s going to happen (unless you’re a computer playing chess, that is). It’s about being able to take in the big picture and see the patters as they emerge and adapt to those patterns accordingly.

Another thing to keep in mind when considering Ben’s powers of manipulation… he has a lot of help from the environment. The crash survivors, for example, are in a fairly extreme situation. Most people in such situations are stripped down to their most basic fears and desires. Manipulating people who are in this state is rather easy.

Just the fact that Ben knows more about the island and its mysteries than just about anybody else puts him WAY in front of everyone else and will allow him to put together very elaborate plots with all the contingencies and redundancies he needs to stay ahead.

All of this said, I think there’s evidence to suggest that Ben does, in fact, have access to some extraordinary information, but this really only “seals the deal” in the argument to demonstrate that he is in control of the board.

Great theory, although I don’t think Ben is as all-knowing as it suggests.

So, how do the scenes from the flash-forward fit into all of this?

OK, so you were basically typing the counter argument to what I said at the same time I was typing it. Good points.

Where does all of this leave Richard? He’s the one who recruited Ben and has seemingly been on the island much longer, so wouldn’t he know more about the island’s capabilities than Ben?

Oh, and who is he writing to in his diary? And why use “(J)” and “(R)” instead of names?

Wow, awesome ProfOzone +1. I love reading your theories and this one did not disappoint.

I, humbly disagree with just one minor point ( I feel like I’m back in school!!!) The writers definitively said at this years comicon that Ben did not get caught in Danielle’s trap on purpose and that they would explain at a later date where he was going before he was captured.

Other than that, perfection!!

Prof, awesome and thought provoking, as usual. +1

What if we looked at this from a different direction. What if Ben is not the chess master. He is only the queen, though he thinks he is the player. What if Jacob is still the master player? He is the master manipulator, and he is only letting Ben think he is in control. There are a lot of things that still seem out of Ben’s hands that are still in his hands (apparently), like Anthony Cooper appearing on the island, Naomi making it to the island, and so on and so forth.

I also think the player could be Richard. He has been on the island longer than Ben, and he is quite a manipulator himself. He was the one, afterall, who recruited Ben. Maybe Richard controls Jacob.

Another thought on the factions. Maybe we are looking at it from thr wrong angle. Could it be possible that the Hostiles and the DI/powers that be are only peices in the game. What if the two factions are the universe and humanity. Mrs. Hawkings represents the universe and Jacob represents humanity. Ben is the queen of humanity, and Des or Jack is the queen of the universe.

Yes, I just called them queens.

I mention Jack, becuase I think we are slowly seeing Jack as being the same sort of manipulator as Ben (I think he is using Ben’s Juliette pawn as a pawn of his own). I think whatever piece Ben is, Jack is the same. I believe that John and Des are opposing like peices.

Prof: That was stellar. I truly respect your ability to theorize and articulate.

YouAllEverybody beat me to it - I too was expecting to read more about Alpert. He seem to be trying to undermine Ben. And also Rousseau - she is an enigma to me, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we learned she’s a double agent working FOR Ben.

Well, see, here’s the thing about Richard…

Certainly all of you are correct that Ben might not be the real manipulator and Richard is a good candidate for the puppet-master role. (I’ve suggested this myself on a few occasions.) But the reason I avoided mentioning him in the theory is because to me he’s just like Danielle… too little information to really get a handle on him. I mean, I don’t even know if Richard is the person young Ben met in the jungle, so even statements like, “Richard knows more about the island that Ben,” might not ring true.

If anyone feels like they have some solid theory about Richard, I’ll gladly incorporate your thoughts into what I have so far.

As for any info gleaned from comicon, I haven’t really been following any of that because I hate spoilers. :-) If they’re going to insist that Ben didn’t get trapped on purpose then I hope they do have a really good story there. For Ben to be trapped accidentally doesn’t seem his style. Now… for someone to have driven him into it… that might be interesting.

I have no idea who Ben is writing in his diary or why he only uses letters instead of whole names.

As for the flash-forward… I guess I felt as though it was beyond the scope of an already perhaps too-broad theory. I tend to think Jack struck some kind of deal to get off the island (one that included Kate’s rescue and clean criminal record). But I really don’t have any clue as to the particulars.

Prof: I just had a thought, about your theory, and something Ben said about “the island’s” “magic box”, to Locke. Although, I don’t recall Ben’s exact words, he did say something to the effect, “imagine, John anything you wanted, and like that, it was here”. Anyway, you get the jist. Do you think that Ben is employing the use of those capabilities, to assist him in playing out this drama on “the island”!

I don’t know for certain what powers Ben has at his disposal in order to make certain things happen or predict certain things. For all I know, when Ben was telling John that, he was just referring to synchronicity. Because if everyone is on the island for a reason, then the desires of each person will conform to that reason, and people will appear to be getting just what they want. Like Ben getting a spinal surgeon. But there are a lot of possibilities here. Too many really to nail down right now, I think. Still, I think we can assume that Ben has access to something extraordinary that helps him, whether it’s a power he possesses personally or not.

Well, one extraordinary power Ben has is his ability to maintain his composure. Chess, depending on the opponent, can be unpredictable requiring the ability to think quickly with several balls in the air. The point I think Osorio was struggling with its not all planned out. Ben is just better than anyone at dealing with the changing circumstances.

And perhaps anticipating some of those circumstances as well.

Prof: Makes perfect sense, Prof!

Stip: You’re observations are astute! Ben does command a great deal of composure.

Ahh, so beautiful Prof! You have a gift of making very complicated stuff so easy to understand. Very nice! And I generally agree with your theory.

+∞

When it comes to Juliet I’m right there with ya. She’s definitely still working with Ben. Ever since her conversation with Ben in the pearl in “exposé” I’ve had a feeling that she’s closer to Ben and his plan than anyone.

From the transcript:

JULIET: That him? Shephard?

BEN: Yes.

JULIET: He’s cute. Why are we doing this? Shephard will never agree to do the surgery.

BEN: No, I can convince him to do it.

JULIET: How?

BEN: Same way I get anybody to do anything. I find out what he’s emotionally invested in, and I exploit it.

For Ben to be this open about his methods seems very strange to me. I don’t trust her for one second…

My feelings exactly, Roger. I always point to that same scene to make that same point.

It’s funny. In a way you have my brother’s name. “Wright” is another word for “workman” and my brother’s name is Roger Wright.

Prof: Heh, sounds like synchronicity to me! Wouldn’t that be the day, a collective unconsciousness of Lost theorists working for (or against) the purpose of the Lost writers ;-)

RW, I think that day has arrived :-)

I’m in agreement with it all…. so any theories on who will win this game? I think it is the Island… We know Ben and Locke lose because people make it off the island, and we know Jack loses in some form or another because we see him trying to get back to the island and is apparently unable to do so…

Well said, kat! Wonderful explanation!

For someone who is so young, you certainly have a lot of wisdom! You rock!

kat, I concur with dab—and hey, we’ve all read/learned stuff somewhere—you’ve got the ability to apply what you read. I think that is a very cool image—inside and outside the box.

kat, I’m not completely sure I’m remembering this correctly, but I think the “?” is formed by the fallen plane itself—requiring the plane to have fallen (and Boone’s sacrifice is therefore meaningful).

Interesting point about shift from Eko/Locke to Locke/Des.

Eko told John not to confuse coincidence for fate.

I think someone has made the point somewhere that the question mark on the blast door map isn’t, actually, the Pearl. The question mark is in the center of the map. The Pearl is clearly marked on the right side of the map.

I think Jacob was behind the visions and wanted John to destroy the Swan for the purposes of cutting the island off from the rest of the world. Ben wanted the same thing, but of course he just wanted it to LOOK like the island had been cut off from the rest of the world (and by someone other than himself). The powers that be also wanted the Swan destroyed so they could find the island.

In all cases, everyone wanted the failsafe activated, because they wanted the Swan destroyed but the island intact. The powers that be knew Desmond would do this. Perhaps this allowed Ben to know the same thing. I’m not sure what Jacob knew or didn’t know, but I think he wanted John to know why he was destroying the Swan so he’d be less susceptible to Ben’s lies.

Sorta. :-)

jaz & kat: the question mark is actually formed because someone mixed salt into the soil so that no vegitation could grow there.

The “?” is only visible from on top of the cliff. That’s why Locke had the vision of Yemi on top of the cliff so that he would then look down and spot the “?” marks the spot.

Good eye, Stip!

Oops… sorry, kat… I meant to say that Eko told John not to confuse fate with coincidence. Which doesn’t contradict your point… it’s just interesting…

—Transcript from “What Kate Did”—

Locke: Here, hold this down on the table there nice and flat. I mean, think about it. Somebody made this film. Someone else cut this piece out. We crash, two halves of the same plane fall in different parts of the island. You’re over there, I’m over here. And now, here’s the missing piece right back where it belongs. What are the odds?

Eko: Don’t mistake coincidence for fate.

—END—

Stip: correct

Prof, remind me how the Beechcraft pointed Locke to the Pearl. I remembered that it did. That’s why I thought it was part of the question mark. How would Locke have been led to the Pearl if he hadn’t been distracted by Des?

Because eventually he would have remembered that he never really figured out what the vision meant. He never found at the site what he was looking for. The light from the Swan prevented him from thinking it through.

I think the question mark was a plan B in getting John to the Pearl. Originally, I think he would have spotted the entrance to the Pearl right next to the plane.

Not at all… it was all me, kat. :-)

That’s a very interesting question Kat. At first I took it to be dramatic writing. But possibly Eko put 2+2 together and realized that the vision of Yemi was, in actuality, Cerebus and it would only be a matter of time before Ben would try to take him out. Which is exactly what happened when Ben shot Locke by the dead body pit.

My thoughts exactly, Arthur.

Well, redemption is still a theme in the show, but it’s a theme in most “hero’s journey” narratives. As far as the notion that the smoke monster killed Eko because he achieved some kind of redemption… that notion doesn’t really hold with this theory. But that’s OK because that notion never really made much sense to me anyway. :-) I’ve always had the impression that Eko was simply “no longer useful”. To whom or for what purpose is still a matter of speculation.

Hi all, very much enjoying the site.

I’d like to make my first comment issuing (what I think is) a correction to a statement made above.

The ? in the center of the map is most definitely the Pearl. “The Pearl” that appears on the right side of the map is off the island proper and annotated with a question mark to indicate uncertainty. Presumably, Radinski/Kelvin knew about the underwater hatch, knew a hatch was called “The Pearl”, and guessed that it would apply to a station in the water.

Keep on rockin’…

Ah… interesting…

Well, karmavore, I’ve never claimed to make much of a study of the blast door map, so I defer to your higher level of expertise. :-)

Oh… and welcome. :-) I’m humbled and honored to have the theory that contains your first comment! :-)

Oh wow Prof. I’m too late to the discussion to add much more (Ben only knows how I missed this!) so all that remains is to congralute you and to +1 you.

Congralute you? Of course I meant congratulate! In my defense I have had the odd glass of cava or three………..

Thank ya kindly, missus! If you’re a mite tipsy, now might be a good time to check out my most recent “Fred” installment…

Great post, ProfOzone. I’m impressed. You have a great style!

This is all fine, but isn’t the game actually backgammon? I’ve seen backgammon played, I believe, three times. Chess, zero.

On the other hand, I think I’ve seen golf played 3 times, too. Anybody want to start theorizing on the meaning of black and white … and green?

Actually… chess shows up in the show when John plays the computer… and I think it’s mentioned a few other times. But, yes, backgammon is the highlighted game, I believe because of the presence of chance in the game.

In any case, I was just using chess as a metaphor here.

I continue to be extremely uncomfortable with theories that require Ben to have perfect knowledge of every future chance occurence.

I much prefer the idea of man against man (Ben vs. Jack, Hostiles vs. Losties). Promoting Ben to some kind of supernatural status robs him of his humanity (obviously) and turns him into some kind of cartoonish supervillian.

I respectfully dissent.

Well… actually… I don’t think any of the ideas presented require him to have supernatural or perfect knowledge. As many of my other theories suggest, it might be that Ben is just especially adaptable. For example, when he got the tumor, he clearly didn’t expect this, but he was, obviously, open to many possibilities in terms of what the tumor meant. I don’t think he knows everything that’s going to happen ahead of time. This is why I compare the whole thing to chess… no master chess player knows all the moves that will come in the future. She or he doesn’t need to. Rather, she or he recognizes high-level patterns in the game and adapts accordingly. Ben doesn’t have to be superhuman in order to do this.

+1! ProfOzone - Widmore DID send desmond on his sailing mission to find the island, right? Did he also send the Black Rock back in the day, possibly from a “future” (quoted emphasized) as another move in the game?

Sorry for the late response, SD101…

At this point just about anything goes in terms of who Widmore has sent and when. And, to be honest, the main point of my post was that many events that took place on the island were part of a chess game… whether I’ve gotten any of the moves perfectly right is of secondary importance. I will note, though, it’s been confirmed that Ben does exert some control over the smoke monster. :-)

And… it did seem to me when Widmore was buying the log from the Black Rock that he was actually re-acquiring something that already belonged to him. Hmmm. :-)